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Roy Lotz's Reviews > The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion

The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt
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bookshelves: ignorance-of-experts, footnotes-to-plato, misanthropology, gods-and-demigods

I expected this book to be good, but I did not expect it to be so rich in ideas and dense with information. Haidt covers far more territory than the subtitle of the book implies. Not only is he attempting to explain why people are morally tribal, but also the way morality works in the human brain, the evolutionary origins of moral feelings, the role of moral psychology in the history of civilization, the origin and function of religion, and how we can apply all this information to the modern political situation—among much else along the way.

Haidt begins with the roles of intuition and reasoning in making moral judgments. He contends that our moral reasoning—the reasons we aver for our moral judgments—consists of mere post hoc rationalizations for our moral intuitions. We intuitively condemn or praise an action, and then search for reasons to justify our intuitive reaction.

He bases his argument on the results of experiments in which the subjects were told a story—usually involving a taboo violation of some kind, such as incest—and then asked whether the story involved any moral breach or not. These stories were carefully crafted so as not to involve harm to anyone (such as a brother and sister having sex in a lonely cabin and never telling anyone, and using contraception to prevent the risk of pregnancy).

Almost inevitably he found the same result: people would condemn the action, but then struggle to find coherent reasons to do so. To use Haidt’s metaphor, our intuition is like a client in a court case, and our reasoning is the lawyer: its job is to win the case for intuition, not to find the truth.

This is hardly a new idea. Haidt’s position was summed up several hundred years before he was born, by Benjamin Franklin: “So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do.� An intuitionist view of morality was also put forward by David Hume and Adam Smith. But Haidt’s account is novel for the evolutionary logic behind his argument and the empirical research used to back his claims. This is exemplified in his work on moral axes.

Our moral intuition is not one unified axis from right to wrong. There are, rather, six independent axes: harm, proportionality, equality, loyalty, authority, and purity. In other words, actions can be condemned for a variety of reasons: for harming others, for cheating others, for oppressing others, for betraying one’s group, for disrespecting authority, and for desecrating sacred objects, beings, or places.

These axes of morality arose because of evolutionary pressure. Humans who cared for their offspring and their families survived better, as did humans who had a greater sensitivity to being cheated by freeloaders (proportionality) and who resisted abusive alpha males trying to exploit them (equality). Similarly, humans who were loyal to their group and who respected a power hierarchy outperformed less loyal and less compliant humans, because they created more coherent groups (this explanation relies on group selection theory; see below). And lastly, our sense of purity and desecration—usually linked to religious and superstitious notions—arose out of our drive to avoid physical contamination (for example, pork was morally prohibited because it was unsafe to eat).

Most people in the world use all six of these axes in their moral systems. It is only in the West—particularly in the leftist West—where we focus mainly on the first three: harm, proportionality, and equality. Indeed, one of Haidt’s most interesting points is that the right tends to be more successful in elections because it appeals to a broader moral palate: it appeals to more “moral receptors� in the brain than left-wing morality (which primarily appeals to the axis of help and harm), and is thus more persuasive.

This brings us to Part III of the book, by far the most speculative.

Haidt begins with a defense of group selection: the theory that evolution can operate on the level of groups competing against one another, rather than on individuals. This may sound innocuous, but it is actually a highly controversial topic in biology, as Haidt himself acknowledges. Haidt thinks that group selection is needed to explain the “groupishness� displayed by humans—our ability to put aside personal interest in favor of our groups—and makes a case for the possibility of group selection occurring during the last 10,000 or so years of our history. He makes the theory seem plausible (to a layperson like me), but I think the topic is too complex to be covered in one short chapter.

True or not, Haidt uses group theory to account for what he calls “hiveish� behavior that humans sometimes display. Why are soldiers willing to sacrifice themselves for their brethren? Why do people like to take ecstasy and rave? Why do we waste so much money and energy going to football games and cheering for our teams? All these behaviors are bizarre when you see humans as fundamentally self-seeking; they only make sense, Haidt argues, if humans possess the ability to transcend their usual self-seeking perspective and identify themselves fully with a group. Activating this self-transcendence requires special circumstances, and it cannot be activated indefinitely; but it produces powerful effects that can permanently alter a person’s perspective.

Haidt then uses group selection and this idea of a “hive-switch� to explain religion. Religions are not ultimately about beliefs, he says, even though religions necessarily involve supernatural beliefs of some kind. Rather, the social functions of religions are primarily to bind groups together. This conclusion is straight out of Durkheim. Haidt’s innovation (well, the credit should probably go to David Sloan Wilson, who wrote Darwin's Cathedral) is to combine Durkheim’s social explanation of religion with a group-selection theory and a plausible evolutionary story (too long to relate here).

As for empirical support, Haidt cites a historical study of communes, which found that religious communes survived much longer than their secular counterparts, thus suggesting that religions substantially contribute to social cohesion and stability. He also cites several studies showing that religious people tend to be more altruistic and generous than their atheistic peers; and this is apparently unaffected by creed or dogma, depending only on attendance rates of religious services. Indeed, for someone who describes himself as an atheist, Haidt is remarkably positive on the subject of religion; he sees religions as valuable institutions that promote the moral level and stability of a society.

The book ends with a proposed explanation of the political spectrum—people genetically predisposed to derive pleasure from novelty and to be less sensitive to threats become left-wing, and vice versa (the existence of libertarians isn’t explained, and perhaps can’t be)—and finally with an application of the book’s theses to the political arena.

Since we are predisposed to be “groupish� (to display strong loyalty towards our own group) and to be terrible at questioning our own beliefs (since our intuitions direct our reasoning), we should expect to be blind to the arguments of our political adversaries and to regard them as evil. But the reality, Haidt argues, is that each side possesses a valuable perspective, and we need to have civil debate in order to reach reasonable compromises. Pretty thrilling stuff.

Well, there is my summary of the book. As you can see, for such a short book, written for a popular audience, The Righteous Mind is impressively vast in scope. Haidt must come to grips with philosophy, politics, sociology, anthropology, psychology, biology, history—from Hume, to Darwin, to Durkheim—incorporating mountains of empirical evidence and several distinct intellectual traditions into one coherent, readable whole. I was constantly impressed by the performance. But for all that, I had the constant, nagging feeling that Haidt was intentionally playing the devil’s advocate.

Haidt argues that our moral intuition guides our moral reasoning, in a book that rationally explores our moral judgments and aims to convince its readers through reason. The very existence of his book undermines his uni-directional model of intuitions to reasoning. Being reasonable is not easy; but we can take steps to approach arguments more rationally. One of these steps is to summarize another person’s argument before critiquing it, which is what I've done in this review.

He argues that religions are not primarily about beliefs but about group fitness; but his evolutionary explanation of religion would be rejected by those who deny evolution on religious grounds; and even if specific beliefs don’t influence altruistic behavior, they certainly do influence which groups (homosexuals, biologists) are shunned. Haidt also argues that religions are valuable because of their ability to promote group cohesion; but if religions necessarily involve irrational beliefs, as Haidt admits, is it really wise to base a moral order on religious notions? If religions contribute to the social order by encouraging people to sacrifice their best interest for illogical reasons—such as in the commune example—should they really be praised?

The internal tension continues. Haidt argues that conservatives have an advantage in elections because they appeal to a broader moral palate, not just care and harm; and he argues that conservatives are valuable because their broad morality makes them more sensitive to disturbances of the social order. Religious conservative groups, which enforce loyalty and obedience, are more cohesive and durable than secular groups that value tolerance. But Haidt himself endorses utilitarianism (based solely on the harm axis) and ends the book with a plea for moral tolerance. Again, the existence of Haidt's book presupposes secular tolerance, which makes his stance confusing.

Haidt’s arguments with regard to broad morality come dangerously close to the so-called ‘naturalistic fallacy�: equating what is natural with what is good. He compares moral axes to taste receptors; a morality that appeals to only one axis will be unsuccessful, just like a cuisine that appeals to only one taste receptor will fail to satisfy. But this analogy leads directly to a counter-point: we know that we have evolved to love sugar and salt, but this preference is no longer adaptive, indeed it is unhealthy; and it is equally possible that our moral environment has changed so much that our moral senses are no longer adaptive.

In any case, I think that Haidt’s conclusions about leftist morality are incorrect. Haidt asserts that progressive morality rests primarily on the axis of care and harm, and that loyalty, authority, and purity are actively rejected by liberals (“liberals� in the American sense, as leftist). But this is implausible. Liberals can be extremely preoccupied with loyalty—just ask any Bernie Sanders supporter. The difference is not that liberals don’t care about loyalty, but that they tend to be loyal to different types of groups—parties, demographics, and ideologies rather than countries. And the psychology of purity and desecration is undoubtedly involved in the left’s concern with racism, sexism, homophobia, or privilege (accusing someone of speaking from privilege creates a moral taint as severe as advocating sodomy does in other circles).

I think Haidt’s conclusion is rather an artifact of the types of questions that he asks in his surveys to measure loyalty and purity. Saying the pledge of allegiance and going to church are not the only manifestations of these impulses.

For my part, I think the main difference between left-wing and right-wing morality is the attitude towards authority: leftists are skeptical of authority, while conservatives are skeptical of equality. This is hardly a new conclusion; but it does contradict Haidt’s argument that conservatives think of morality more broadly. And considering that a more secular and tolerant morality has steadily increased in popularity over the last 300 years, it seems prima facie implausible to argue that this way of thinking is intrinsically unappealing to the human brain. If we want to explain why Republicans win so many elections, I think we cannot do it using psychology alone.

The internal tensions of this book can make it frustrating to read, even if it is consistently fascinating. It seems that Haidt had a definite political purpose in writing the book, aiming to make liberals more open to conservative arguments; but in de-emphasizing so completely the value of reason and truth—in moral judgments, in politics, and in religion—he gets twisted into contradictions and risks undermining his entire project.

Be that as it may, I think his research is extremely valuable. Like him, I think it is vital that we understand how morality works socially and psychologically. What is natural is not necessarily what is right; but in order to achieve what is right, it helps to know what we’re working with.
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December 29, 2013 – Shelved as: to-read
December 29, 2013 – Shelved
Started Reading
May 16, 2017 – Finished Reading
May 17, 2017 – Shelved as: ignorance-of-experts
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May 17, 2017 – Shelved as: misanthropology
May 17, 2017 – Shelved as: gods-and-demigods

Comments Showing 1-39 of 39 (39 new)

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message 1: by Ted (new)

Ted A great summary and analysis, Roy. The book seems entirely too speculative for my interests, but if I have to I can always come back to this review. Good job!


message 2: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Ted wrote: "A great summary and analysis, Roy. The book seems entirely too speculative for my interests, but if I have to I can always come back to this review. Good job!"

Thanks very much! There's a great deal of empirical research in the book, but it's true it does get quite speculative in parts.


message 3: by Ted (new)

Ted Roy wrote: "Ted wrote: "A great summary and analysis, Roy. The book seems entirely too speculative for my interests, but if I have to I can always come back to this review. Good job!"

Thanks very much! There'..."


The research is certainly interesting, but such results can often be interpreted along rather speculative lines, I would guess. Psychology/psychiatry still isn't a "hard" science, although getting closer.


message 4: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz It's true that the interpretation of his research involves a certain amount of speculation. And in subjects like this, speculation can easily be swayed by political motives!


message 5: by Mir (new)

Mir Why are soldiers willing to sacrifice themselves for their brethren? Why do people like to take ecstasy and rave? Why do we waste so much money and energy going to football games and cheering for our teams? All these behaviors are bizarre when you see humans as fundamentally self-seeking; they only make sense, Haidt argues, if humans possess the ability to transcend their usual self-seeking perspective and identify themselves fully with a group.

I infer than Haidt is a party-hating introvert who perhaps suffers from dyspepsia.

This sounds like a more rigorous and non-historically-specific rewrite of the landmark monograph Purity and Danger: An Analysis of Concepts of Pollution and Taboo


message 6: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Well Haidt is an academic, which is perhaps the same thing!


message 7: by Mir (new)

Mir Maybe he needs to be slipped some E and dragged to a tailgate.


message 8: by Ted (new)

Ted Miriam wrote: "Maybe he needs to be slipped some E and dragged to a tailgate."

(chuckle)


message 9: by Nicole (new)

Nicole On libertarians: I actually just watched a video of a talk where Haidt argues that libertarians are hard to disgust, whereas disgust plays a major role in the construction of morality for both left and right (in the US).

(Not saying it's a correct argument, just noting it for the record.)


message 10: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz That seems plausible to me. I'm not a libertarian but on these moral tests I always score low on disgust. Maybe it's because I've lived in New York City.


message 11: by Ted (new)

Ted Roy wrote: "That seems plausible to me. I'm not a libertarian but on these moral tests I always score low on disgust. Maybe it's because I've lived in New York City."

(another chuckle) and, the "moral tests" you speak of, are these in the book? Or have you indulged (or been subjected to) such tests as part of your Spanish experience?


message 12: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz I actually went to his website, yourmorals.org, and took a few of his surveys.


message 13: by Manny (new) - added it

Manny I really should read this book, thank you for the eloquent reminder! And he seems to be covering territory which overlaps strongly with Dennett's. What does he say about him?


message 14: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Thanks for reading!

He actually explicitly critiques and rejects Dennett's explanation of religion in Breaking the Spell. Haidt thinks religion was actually adaptive and selected for, rather than a memetic parasite or an evolutionary error.

In general Haidt is opposed to the New Atheists' views on religion, since Haidt thinks religions are socially beneficient and aimed towards social cohesion rather than failed attempts to explain the natural world. (For my part, focusing on either one or the other seems incorrect.)

There's a highly regarded book that also covers the same ground, Breaking the Spell, which criticizes both Haidt's and Dennett's view. It's on my list!


message 15: by Yuri (new) - rated it 3 stars

Yuri Zbitnoff Fantastic review, sir.
I completely reject your contention that leftists are skeptical of authority. The Left absolutely worships authority. As long as it's progressive authority, it goes completely unchallenged.


message 16: by Manny (new) - added it

Manny Roy wrote: "He actually explicitly critiques and rejects Dennett's explanation of religion in Breaking the Spell. Haidt thinks religion was actually adaptive and selected for, rather than a memetic parasite or an evolutionary error.

In general Haidt is opposed to the New Atheists' views on religion, since Haidt thinks religions are socially beneficient and aimed towards social cohesion rather than failed attempts to explain the natural world."


Hm... to me, this sounds like a rather crude mischaracterisation of Dennett, who tries to stay neutral on the question of whether religion-memes are harmful or beneficial to their hosts. I don't think Dennett would necessarily disagree on the question furthering social cohesion.

Does he say anything about language and culture in general? You can't help wondering if there isn't some basic connection there. Language in particular is impossible without a faithful copying mechanism that permits transmission of the language from one speaker to another, typically from mother to child, and language is obviously a beneficial adaptation. You can argue that once you have language to allow spreading of memes, you also have the possibility of meme-parasites, which could be religions, but that seems premature to me. Memes are in a sense always parasites.

Okay, okay, I need to read this...


message 17: by Thomas Ray (new) - added it

Thomas Ray Great review, Roy!

the existence of libertarians isn’t explained, and perhaps can’t be
Libertarians are just greedy: I got mine, I'll roll up the ladder so you can't come up. And, some government help for me, please, none for you.

moral intuition guides our moral reasoning, in a book that rationally explores
Yes, but he's not making moral choices in doing so, just explaining them.

religions are valuable because of their ability to promote group cohesion; but if religions necessarily involve irrational beliefs, as Haidt admits, is it really wise to base a moral order on religious notions? If religions contribute to the social order by encouraging people to sacrifice their best interest for illogical reasons—such as in the commune example—should they really be praised?
He's saying it doesn't matter, to group cohesion, how you get there. A hive needs cohesion; why the bees cohere is a detail.

It seems to me many writers on religion who've never experienced it, nor known anyone closely who has, miss a crucial reason for religion. If you have nothing heavy you have to lift, you need no physical strength. If you have no intricate intellectual challenge, you need no mental strength. If you never have, nor ever will, experience a moment of moral crisis, you aren't living. Everyone needs spiritual strength. A lifetime of religious practice--no matter what religion--can build spiritual strength.

I think you're right about authority. Can't stand it.

Great review.


Blair Hi, Roy.

This is a great review of what I think is an excellent book. You do a nice job summarizing what Haidt is trying to tell us. I have a few comments.

You ask if it is wise to base a moral order on irrational religions notions. Scott Atran in In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion explains why irrational religious beliefs are essential to promote group cohesion. Essentially, it requires more commitment to accept an irrational belief, and this demonstrates commitment to the group. Commitment is necessary for group cohesion. Perhaps this is how one builds what Thomas Ray calls spiritual strength.

I agree with you that six moral foundations do not divide as neatly between liberals and conservatives as Haidt claims. It think he has identified an important way to start the analysis, but it is not that simple. In my view, both sides tell a story that emphasizes different moral foundations, but in reality they both have very selective interpretations of all of them. In my review of the book I try to show how liberals and conservatives interpret all six of the moral foundations.

More interesting and fundamental to the question is Haidt’s claim that personal character influences people’s political viewpoints, and that character has a genetic component. I would like to explore this further.

In the end, I see no contradiction between using rational analysis to discover that people are motivated by irrational considerations. That is what psychology is all about. Nor is there anything wrong with an appeal for moral tolerance to help understand those who embrace it less than we do.


message 19: by Roy (last edited May 18, 2017 06:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz @Manny:

Haidt doesn't say much about language and culture in general, other than that the key step in the evolution of both was intentionality: a theory of mind that allows us to empathize with others and understand what they were trying to do, even if they failed doing it.

This is the cognitive gulf that separates humans from chimpanzees. Chimps are extremely intelligent, but they will never, for example, help one another carry a log. In other words, they lack the ability to understand what one chimp is trying to do and then to do something complementary to help them complete the action.


message 20: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Yuri wrote: "I completely reject your contention that leftists are skeptical of authority. The Left absolutely worships authority. As long as it's progressive authority, it goes completel..."

Can you give me an example? In this regard, I think most often of the Spanish Civil War, during which the right coalesced around a strong central leader and the left devolved into factions. Indeed, I think skepticism towards authority is part of the definition of the left, isn't it? Leftists necessarily need to use power in order to accomplish anything; but they tend to try to use their power to limit other forms of power, such as using the government to regulate business.


message 21: by Manny (new) - added it

Manny Roy wrote: "Haidt doesn't say much about language and culture in general, other than that the key step in the evolution of both was intentionality: a theory of mind that allows us to empathize with others and understand what they were trying to do, even if they failed doing it.

This is the cognitive gulf that separates humans from chimpanzees. Chimps are extremely intelligent, but they will never, for example, help one another carry a log. In other words, they lack the ability to understand what one chimp is trying to do and then to do something complementary to help them complete the action."


I can very well believe that this is part of it, but I think you're still missing something essential. Intentionality doesn't (at least to me) have anything to do with grammar. Grammar is at least as central to language, and other species definitely seem to lack it.

Both in language and in culture, we seem to have this drive to internalize rules. Where does it come from? What are its consequences?


message 22: by Roy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Manny wrote: "I can very well believe that this is part of it, but I think you're still missing something essential. Intentionality doesn't (at least to me) have anything to do with grammar. Grammar is at least as central to language, and other species definitely seem to lack it.

Both in language and in culture, we seem to have this drive to internalize rules. Where does it come from? What are its consequences? "


I definitely agree that intentionality doesn't come close to fully explaining the evolution of language. I think Haidt only argued that it was an essential first step. Other than that, he doesn't discuss the origin of language. I am totally in the dark on this issue, so I can't help!


message 23: by Manny (last edited May 18, 2017 07:07AM) (new) - added it

Manny Clearly no one knows. I'm just saying that a potentially adequate theory needs to include something that could explain where rules (including grammar rules) come from, and I don't see that intentionality does that.

In fact, in many ways rule-following and intentionality seem to be opposed to each other. People can follow rules to do things which make them act against their instinct of fellow-feeling, e.g. burn other human beings at the stake or (slightly less dramatically) remove their medical coverage.


message 24: by Roy (last edited May 18, 2017 11:41AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz @Blair and Thomas:

Yes, you're right that there's no paradox in using reason to reach the conclusion that we are guided by intuition in our moral decisions. Indeed, to me his model seems basically correct.

Arguably he isn't saying anything new. At least since the sophists taught their pupils to argue persuasively for any conclusion, or since Aristotle included pathos and ethos in his analysis of persuasion, the importance of emotional appeals and personal respect in argument have been acknowledged. Nobody who has ever had an argument can believe that humans are motivated by pure reason to dispassionately seek the truth. Haidt confirmed something that we have known and used for a long time. But I do have one major caveat.

Haidt explains our tendency to seek justifications rather than truth as the result of our evolutionary history: Our reputation for goodness matters a lot more for our survival than whether or not we're actually good. Our reasoning is thus a political tool rather than a truth-seeking mechanism, used to defend ourselves from accusations and persuade others to join our side.

All this is fine; but Haidt seems to be assuming a dichotomy between justification and truth, and between a good reputation and goodnesss itself, where none exists. In most circumstances—especially in the small groups in which we evolved—our reputation for goodness depends exactly on how good we act. Likewise, the strength of a justification is not independent of its truth; pathos and ethos are important, but logos also plays an essential role in any argument. Since reputation and reality, persuasion and accuracy, often coincide, one would expect there to be some evolutionary pressure to reason well, and not just to seem to reason well.

Haidt is, of course, correct that we sometimes find ourselves morally dumbfounded, unable to explain why we think something is wrong, and yet convinced that it is so. But he evoked this dumbfounding by using highly contrived stories designed for that exact purpose. All of his stories involve someone violating a taboo in secret. But this produces a paradoxical reaction in the brains of his subjects when they are told about it (the action is somehow not secret but still secret).

We can also create optical illusions in which our eyes see things inaccurately. Does this prove that the eye is inaccurate? No, because optical illusions are contrived for the very purpose. Under the circumstances for which our eyes were evolved, they are reasonably dependable; and under normal social circumstances, most people can clearly explain why they think an action is wrong.

My main issue with Haidt's model is that he sees the political purpose and the truth-seeking purpose of reasoning as overly independent—they are separable in principle, and can be unlinked in certain special circumstances—while I think that in most normal situations these two functions are closely linked.

After all, we would never have evolved the capacity to be persuaded by arguments if arguments were inevitably pure manipulation that had no relationship with the truth. Indeed, if that were the case, there would be strong selection in favor of total skepticism.


message 25: by Thomas Ray (new) - added it

Thomas Ray Chimps help each other hunt. As do other pack predators.

There may be a bit of antiauthoritarianism in liberals' rejection of religion: all religions rely on religious authorities. In a religion with two adherents, it'd probably be master-pupil.

George Lakoff thinks the liberal/conservative divide comes from a rejection or acceptance of authority. Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think

What I've noticed is, people who once knew we need government to combat inequality, when they acquire a shockingly few dollars of personal wealth, come to believe that, "government taxes wealth best, that taxes wealth least."


message 26: by Yuri (new) - rated it 3 stars

Yuri Zbitnoff @Roy


message 27: by Yuri (new) - rated it 3 stars

Yuri Zbitnoff @Roy


message 28: by Yuri (new) - rated it 3 stars

Yuri Zbitnoff @Roy you've precisely proved my point.


message 29: by Yuri (new) - rated it 3 stars

Yuri Zbitnoff The Left requires the acquisition of power in order to carry out its agenda. There are no fixed moral principles and there is no attempt to be accountable for the failure of progressive policy. All that really matters is that the rhetoric sounds good and flatters the pretensions of moral superiority. This is precisely why progressives have made identity politics the centerpiece of their agenda. As long as you're chasing an omnipresent boogeyman of bigotry, you can ascribe malignant motivations of your opposition by default. Regulation of business is good because businessmen are greedy. Laws should punish businesses who discriminate against gay customers because they're bigots. And so on. Progressivism is merely a recipe for the expansion of the State and a license to expand the sphere of criminal behavior. Identity politics is merely the delivery system because it has a pretense of moral righteousness baked into it.


message 30: by Thomas Ray (new) - added it

Thomas Ray To do anything requires power. No government doesn't mean no one in charge--it means whoever dominates the market, or has the muscle, is in control, to everyone else's detriment.

Bernie, as I understood him, was really about slowing the transfer of wealth from the many who have too little to the few who have more than they could spend in many lifetimes. That's what I mean by progressive.

Identity politics are something else, championed by New Democrats such as Obama and both Clintons. They focused on identity politics (acceptance of gays, women) to distract attention from the fact that their policies were ones that would facilitate the above wealth transfer to the rich.

Regulation of business is necessary because, as we discovered circa 1900 and are rediscovering now, without it a few powerful people use their power to keep everyone else in destitution, and foul the air, land, and water.

Someone will always be in power. The only question is, will that person or those people use that power only for their own enrichment at the expense of everyone else, or will they use it to prevent the abuse of the weak by the strong.


message 31: by Thomas Ray (last edited May 18, 2017 03:46PM) (new) - added it

Thomas Ray expand the sphere of criminal behavior
As I understand it, it was Clinton who vastly ballooned the U.S. prison population. Largely African-Americans, working in prisons for corporations for 20 cents per hour.

Clinton was no progressive. If he portrayed himself as a champion of African-Americans, I don't know how. We haven't had an arguably progressive president since at least LBJ.


message 32: by Nicole (new)

Nicole It's possible to be a civil libertarian, dedicated to individual freedoms, unregulated by the government (or anyone else), and still exist on the left, even on the far left.

This is true even with respect to the question of the size of government. There are those on the left who are in favor of very large government, and yet still dedicated to the proposition that government should not trample on the rights of individual citizens. (It is also the case, and we have seen this in the US, that there are those who exist on the small-government right, and who are nonetheless in favor of a great deal of regulation of individual behaviors.) Governments DO do things other than trample on their citizens' freedoms. First, not all regulation targets individuals, and many regulations increase the amount of individual freedom and choice for the average citizen (think about laws concerning food labeling, for example, which allow for individual choices for the average consumer, while vastly restricting the "freedom" of the corporations that produce the food. Freedom is in scare quotes there because corporations, while made up of people, aren't people, and shouldn't have rights. It's nonsensical to talk about a business having freedom). Second, governments provide services. These can make necessary a huge amount of bureaucracy (and, as it happens, create thousands and thousands of jobs) without infringing on individual rights one whit. Finally, reigning in some people's freedom is just frankly necessary to ensure the freedoms and safety of others. This is the reason for the leviathan, because more people are free under its rule than are under say neo-feudalist warlords or organized crime. This isn't something that the left does to piss you off, this is just a fact about the world and about human behavior.

This is mostly to respond to Yuri's claims that those on the left are seeking power and authority (which indeed can sometimes be the case, but is not always so). Interestingly, Yuri, some of the implicit assumptions of your argument are shared by a certain portion of the US far left which thinks all structures and actions are about power, necessarily, so much so that it's as if the world is made of power in the way that matter is made of atoms or quarks. You may have a lot more in common with these people than you think you do. But I think it also problematizes some of the assumptions in the Haidt categories, and their relationship to moral psychology. Not all leftists (and not all conservatives) are the same, and not all people exist on a simple right to left axis (or right to left axis plus weird liberatarian other group), which seems to be the assumption of much of the discussion.


message 33: by Roy (last edited May 19, 2017 05:50AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Roy Lotz Yuri wrote: "The Left requires the acquisition of power in order to carry out its agenda. There are no fixed moral principles and there is no attempt to be accountable for the failure of progressive policy."

It seems that your personal dislike of the contemporary American left is heavily influencing your analysis. Identity politics cannot be used in a definition of leftism because it is not found everywhere; indeed here in Spain "identity politics" hardly exists in the American sense, even though there are strong leftist parties.

It is true that the contemporary leftist agenda in the United States does require the use of state power to regulate business and protect certain disadvantaged demographic groups. But it isn't true that this power is used to expand the sphere of criminal behavior generally. Many leftists are strongly in favor of reducing punishments for drug use, for example, and of reducing the American prison population. This is nothing new; the left has been in favor of many forms of decriminalization in the past.

Each one of these actions is justified, in the leftist narrative, as being a way to protect the vulnerable: the poor, the sick, the oppressed, and demographic groups who face discrimination. I would be the last person to say that these ideals are always found in practice; I only point out that this is the narrative which is earnestly believed.

In any case, saying that leftism is just a ploy to set up an authoritarian government won't pass muster in a cool analysis of the political spectrum.


Colleen This is an awesome review. I wonder if "we" can use Haidt's explanation of tribalism to explain why so many in Seattle are liberal, or any of the other big cities. Why did I pick Seattle? Well, I have 3 nieces and nephews that grew up in Conservative households and are now what I call extreme liberal. I have also witnessed friends from midwest who grew up in Conservative household and who are now extreme liberal.


Fredrik I found that this book takes some leaps, that I find no real reason or evidence for. As in religion is necessary for a stable society, but being believing in it, going to church or doing anything religious, has to bearing on how giving they are. The only fact they found, was that if they went to more communal meetings, they were more giving. So it was group activity, regardless of belief, that is the reason that religions is important. Which doesn't make any sense at all for me.
Or how he contradicts himself quite often.
He talks about us being chimps and that we basically have chimp morality (compared to hunter gatherers who share evenly, without hiarchy), and use rape, killing and so forth as examples. So does that mean, that he thinks conservatives believe rape and murder is moral? Does he think that if they do, that is valid morality?
He also seem to missinterpret Darwin, Adam Smith and more. Civilized to death and The Sixth Extinction directly contradict his findings, and he focuses on chimps instead of our other cousins. He mentions them once, but chimps again and again.
He also, at no point, takes up if loyalty, sactity and authority should be seen as moral or how much weight they should be given. He only focuses on the fact that conservatives see them as moral or that it is natural for us to see it as moral. What one group feel is moral, can not be taken as a moral truth, in any regard. If so, then all the genocide, rape and murder in the world is moral.


Alexander Excellent review, Roy. Thank you for sharing it!


message 37: by Siraaj (new) - added it

Siraaj Khandkar Regarding authority: it certainly looked as you describe yesterday, but does not appear to be so today (in USA, at least), as leftists are leaning more and more into legal enforcement and rightists calling for less.

What this suggest to me is that attitude towards authority has to do with opportunism (what means are _currently_ available for me to get my way?) and not the root of the differences.

Libertarians, anarchists, et al - are harder to classify as right|left, but are the only group with a clear anti-authority bias.


Petros Siraaj wrote: "Regarding authority: it certainly looked as you describe yesterday, but does not appear to be so today (in USA, at least), as leftists are leaning more and more into legal enforcement and rightists..."

There is a lot of confusion over what left and right really is about.

Anarchists are definitely and unequivocally left-leaning.

For a short video that offers a very concise commentary on the subject, you can look up “What the Left-Right Political Spectrum is Really About� from the “WHAT IS POLITICS?� YouTube channel (the same YouTube channel has another two, longer and more thorough, videos on this topic).🙂


Heidi thank you for such a thorough and discerning review. I am currently listening to it, and excited about his research into moral/social psychology and feel I was learning a lot that can explain how people can vote for a known bigoted crook. And to read from several reviews that he thinks it's a good thing that we humans are still subject to our ancient twisted "intuition" that can see unethical acts as "good" because it's a more um, complete, morality. Funny how no matter what the research actually points to, the conclusions can fit whatever agenda....


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