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Hey everyone, here's our reading schedule for The Cider House Rules!

By September 10, read chapters 1 and 2
By September 17, read chapters 3 and 4
By September 24 read chapters 5 and 6
By October 1 read chapters 7 and 8
By October 8 read 9 and 10
By October 15 finish the book

How does that work for everyone? Who's in?

Looks great!

Sounds good. I'm in.

It'll take me a few days to get the book, but I'm in.

I'm also in

I've started this one. Think I am going to find it interesting!

Excited to find this group! I've been wanting to read The Cider House Rules :)

Wonderful, Kathy! Happy to have you joining us!

I'm in

Excellent! Quite a crowd! We'll start discussing this weekend, hope everyone has a copy and is getting into it!

So do we discuss at certain times, or just post as wanted?

Hi Kathy, by Sunday, everyone should have read chapters 1 and 2, so at that point, we can talk about anything from those 2 chapters without worrying about spoiling anything. After that, it's 2 chapters per week until we finish the book. You can read ahead or behind the schedule, but we ask that you don't post anything ahead of time so it doesn't ruin the surprise for the rest of us. Being that I nominated the book and am leading the discussion, I'll try to ask some questions each week to keep the conversation going, but anyone is free to jump in with their thoughts or questions!

In chapter 1, we see Homer's attempts at being adopted. How does Homer react, and what does that tell you about him? Why does Homer seem to be the only one to have sympathy for the women giving up their babies?

I seem to be encountering a number of books that portray all the overtly Christian characters as hypocritical or cruel. A modern author would not broad brush all the characters belonging to another group (e.g. an ethnic group, those with a physical infirmity, a socio-economic strata) in a similar way and most modern readers would not tolerate it. But, somehow, it is acceptable to do it with those who externally identify with and practice the Christian faith. I see it happening in the first two chapters of this book. Those who are church-going Christians are drunken hypocrites, from the professor who adopted Homer to the choir singing religious hymns to drown out the screems of those getting back alley abortions. The kind, compassionate, merciful are going to be those who would not call themselves religious. So, organized religion is bad, or at least those who participate in it. As one who is very involved in her church and considers herself to be highly religious, I find this off-putting. As one who believes that life begins at the moment of conception and so therefore wants to protect life from that moment, I find the portrayal of those opposing abortions as hard-hearted, judgmental people who care nothing for women to be unfair.

Irene wrote: "I seem to be encountering a number of books that portray all the overtly Christian characters as hypocritical or cruel. A modern author would not broad brush all the characters belonging to another..."
Since your comment contains "heated" topics such as religion and/or politics, I have written to you personally. I hope it helps.

Jennifer W wrote: "In chapter 1, we see Homer's attempts at being adopted. How does Homer react, and what does that tell you about him?

How does a young child react to being neglected, abused, tortured physically and emotionally - in worse ways than Homer did. :( Homer found solace in Dr. Larch's upbringing by remembering the good things in his life and being useful. What does this tell me about him? He's a pure soul that just wants to be loved just like everyone ever born! He NEEDS to fit in.

The fact that he connected with these young women who gave up their children for adoption (something someone who was abused as severely as Homer was might not do - in fact I could see them doing the opposite) confirms my statement that he's a pure little boy yearning to be loved.

Yes, Homer does come off as more pure than I would expect in an average child. He also seems to have an uncanny connection to the orphanage and its staff. Being that the doctor and nurses are a stable presence, not much staff turn over, they become serogate parents for him. It seems as if his adoption is a bit like family sending him away and he wants to keep coming home and works hard to prove himself to those people so he does not have to be sent away from home.

I agree that Homer seems to view the orphanage staff as his "family". This is the place he feels most safe, where he feels he "belongs", and like Irene says, he wants to work hard to prove himself so he will be allowed to stay.

Interesting observation about religion Irene. I hadn't taken those as an overt slam at Christianity while I was reading the first two chapters, but I see you point now that you mention it.

This is obviously going to be a pro-choice for abortion themed story. I think literature can help us see the world from the vantage point of those whith different views and experiences. Although I do not expect that this story will alter my opinion on the sanctity of the life of babies in the womb, I do hope it will help me to better understand how others arrive at their opinion and give me greater understanding for all people.

I did find it interesting that the back street abortion "clinic" chose religious songs for their cover. Earlier in the chapter it mentioned that that clinic chose music over pain medication. Do the singers genuinely believe they are praying for the women? And why is it in German?

I think I was more struck by the wealthy family wanting an abortion, though. They felt much more hypocritical to me than anyone thus far presented as religious.


Having seen how Dr. Larch got started in performing abortions, does it lend any sympathy to him? Does it make a difference to you that he is running both an orphanage and an abortion clinic in St Clouds?

Is there a reason the author chose to have both Mrs. and Miss Eames in the story?

How about how Homer finds out about abortions? Should the doctor and nurses have told him before that?

I assumed that the hymns were in German because that was the ethnic make up of the little community. This is turn of the century and recent immigrants from Europe would be common. I thought that the line about substituting music for pain medication was one more slap against these back alley abortions. These people did not care about the women. They simply wanted to drown out their screems, to mask what was going on. So, they hid it behind music. The fact that it was religious music just further highlighted the hypacrocy of these people. Dr. Larch alone really cares about the plight of the women.

Yes, I do think that the back story about how the doctor begins to abort babies was designed to make the reader sympathetic. This is a good man who only wants to do the best for women in trouble. So called pro-life religious people would condemn a pregnant woman in trouble. At best, they will offer her a judgmental place to leave her baby. Only Dr. Larch is willing to risk his professional reputation to act with compassion. Irvine is making a very explicit contrast between religious people who pretend to care about the unborn child and this atheist who really does care about women in need.

I agree, the abortion in the wealthy family home was the hight of hypocricy. But, again, I think Irvine is making a statement. It is the poor tenement girls, the wicked prostitutes that find themselves in back alley clinics. But in fact even those in positions of respect and money find themselves pregnant and unmarried. But, they have access to cover up the situation. The very pillars of the community who condemn poor pregnant unmarried women, who would condemn them to a life of further poverty or force them to risk their lives in these illegal abortion mills, themselves have secret abortions in the relative cleanliness and comfort of home.

I was surprised that Dr. Larch had the young man watch the abortion of the wealthy guy. If he was not the father of the child, something Dr. Larch only guessed at, he further humiliated that woman.

As for Homer not being told about the abortions until he discovers a discarded fetus, I understand why the orphanage would not have discussed it with him. A century ago, people did not talk about sex. A young teen would not have been given information about sex until his wedding night or would have learned it from his peers. It was not deemed appropriate. I think it would have been a stretch to have had such a talk written into the plot.

Even though the wealthy family could afford the abortion, they essentially had to go about it through "back alleys" too, though. They have a doctor at their dinner party (morbid affair that was), but they had to reach outside of their community to find Dr. Larch because either no one else would do it, or they didn't want the gossip. But someone knew a thing or 2 about what had to happen, as the girl was perfectly prepped.

What about Dr. Larch refusing to take the money? Why spread it around to the help of the house?

Yes, both rich and poor have the shame of an unwed pregnancy. Abortions are not legal for either. But the rich have access to a medical doctor, not a hack, even if it is secret. And the rich have the privacy of the family home, they don't have to go to a filthy place, walk in and walk home again in that pain and shame.

I think Larch felt the incongruity of what was happening in secret at this rich home verses the public image they projected, the assumption that they would publically condemn another woman, especially the poor, for an unwanted pregnancy. He could not reconcile his conscience with financially benefiting from this sham.

Irene wrote: "This is obviously going to be a pro-choice for abortion themed story. I think literature can help us see the world from the vantage point of those whith different views and experiences. Although I ..."

Irene, I like that you are reading this with an open reader's mind. That shows a lot about your maturity as a reader, person, human being. Very cool.

Jennifer W wrote: "Hi Kathy, by Sunday, everyone should have read chapters 1 and 2, so at that point, we can talk about anything from those 2 chapters without worrying about spoiling anything. After that, it's 2 chap..."

Got it; thanks!

QueenAmidala28 wrote: "Irene wrote: "This is obviously going to be a pro-choice for abortion themed story. I think literature can help us see the world from the vantage point of those whith different views and experience..."

I agree! But you always have interesting insights into the books we read! :)

I've gotten through Ch 2 (a week behind, I know) and I'm really loving the book. I'm still laughing about the Winkle's watery demise.
One small thing I can't figure out: why are there no specific years written in Dr. Larch's journal? Why the 188_ and 193_? Is this explained later in the book?

Melanie's hyper sexuality does not seem like it fits the context. I realize that she came to the orphanage when she was 5 years old, but even if she had been exposed to explicit sex acts, she would not have understood it at such a large age. And her orphanage context is as non-sexual as it can get. Yet, the foster families and her own reporting indicates that she was the sexual aggresser, seducing the men in the house. And her knowledge of oral sex seems unusual for the pre-WWI period for most children, let alone one as isolated as her. So where does her sexual knowledge come from?

I also thought that she was older than Homer in several places starting with the three-legged race. But they are both 20 at the same time. I am confused.

Why would an orphanage keep a girl past the age of majority. in the turn of the century world, most poor or orphaned children were placed in mid-adolescents into some sort of endentured service. By 20, she would have been expected to be on her own. No donor would be funding some welfare institution for an able-bodied adult. Why is she still there? I understand Homer is an apprentice, but why Melanie?

I am more and more uncomfortable with Larch. He plays
God and no one can temper him. Inviting a 15 year old to assist with ObGyn procedures without the woman's consent is unprofessional at best. At a time when people were more prudish than we are today, to allow a teenaged boy to see these women exposed is a thoughtless, disrespectful violation of their dignity. Plus, his judgement is obviously compremised by his ether addiction. He is a drug addict and sees nothing wrong with it. Yet he condemns those who abuse alcohol.

I only managed to get through chapter 3 this week. I agree that Melony's sexual knowledge seems excessive for her age and the times. However, if she had been sexually abused in one of her foster homes, she may have an accelerated understanding. I also don't entirely understand why she is kept there. Dr. Larch nor Mrs. Grogan like her.

Kathy, I haven't figured out the year thing, either. In older books, authors will blank out last names or towns to "protect" them, but it doesn't make sense to do that for the year, so I don't know.

Does Homer seem normal? I get the sense that he's slightly autistic or at least emotionally flat for a young boy.

What do you think about his advice and explanation for Fuzzy's departure?

Why does Dr. Larch continue to allow Homer to read to the girls? Especially when he disagrees with Homer's relationship with Melony?

I agree, Homer is emotionally flat or is it passive. He seems to simply get led through life like a goat with a rope through its nose. I don't feel any connection with him and I think he is going to be the center of this book as it progresses.

I entertained the idea that Melanie might have been sexually abused at a foster home, but it appears that she is the sexual aggressor in the reports which she seems to corroborate either explicitly or implicitly. She knows more than the mechanics of sex acts, she knows how to seduce. The way she sucks on Homer's finger implies sexual knowledge that goes beyond the possibility of a little girl who was the victim of sexual abuse at a young age.

I am also not convinced by the two nurses in the boys' wing. First of all, are the the only two on duty? If so, how do they cover all their responsibilities 24/7. We see them playing with the boys, never hurried, but there are all the responsibilities for the infants, cleaning, etc. And, they also do night duty in the infant room. Plus, why are they not surving as midwives? Here are two experienced women who have been nursing and assisting with L&D for years, but a 15 year old boy is permitted to deliver the baby. I understand the sexism in the setting of the story, but delibering babies has always been one area where women have been assumed to have innate ability/knowledge.

And, was anyone else watching their blood boil with the discrimination against the girls? They had to go to bed earlier than the boys. They were not permitted to read, but had to have one of the orphan boys come over to read to them.

Why don't the nurses suspect Larch is abusing ether?

I had another thought about Melony as I was falling asleep last night. If she were 5 when she came to the orphanage, she should have some memories of her childhood. What if her mom were a prostitute? And Melony, like Miss Eames, was in the room while her mom was working? Then I started thinking that Miss Eames could be her mom (which would explain why the doctor keeps her) but Miss Eames had already died by then.

I wonder if there were more sexually graphic things that Melony found on the property (in addition to the photo of the girl with the pony) that may have developed her sexual ideas?

I agree that Homer seems flat. I was thinking also that he might be aspergers or something similar.

I did wonder if the fact that she comes to the orphanage at age 5 was to leave open the possibility that her sexual knowledge comes from something she experiences in those early years. As I said in my post earlier, I don't think that, even if that is the assumption, it does not account for her knowledge. Even if she saw sex or was abused, she would have been too young to have fully understood what was happening. It could account for her flaunting of nudity, but not her knowledge of how to arouse a man.

The house/cabin that she destroyed, that had the photo of the girl with the pony and the mattress in it...who lived there? Workers? When were these workers there? Could Melony have been abused by these men? Is that how she knew about the room and why she destroyed the building?

It was a very old structure. I don't recall exactly, but wasn't it where some lumber workers stayed temporarily? I got the impression that the house had been abandoned for a long time, too long for the formal occupants to have raped her. Of course, there is always the possibility that some transient assaulted her. But, her anger did not seem directed at some memory of the house, but at her inability to find and punish her mother. So, if she was assaulted, I tend to think it was during the years prior to her arriving at the orphanage. It is just odd if that is the case. Abused children almost always idealize their abusive parent and try extra hard to please them, especially if the abuse is when the child is young. If there is anger, it is almost always directed at themselves, not at the parent. Having not seen this mother since the age of 5, it would be far more likely that she hated the orphanage and wanted a reunification with the idealized version of the mother she hardly knew than wanting to murder her.

It is also very strange that this orphanage would put up with the hyper sexuality of this adolescent. It would have been viewed as a serious psychiatric problem in the most libral circles and wickedness in conservative circles. Both would have prompted her to be removed either to a psychiatric treatment facility or sent away as soon as she was old enough to be on her own.

This story line is not feeling as if it sets right with its historical setting.

still making my way thru this book. I love all the descriptive passages, but the characters are difficult to like, in my opinion.

What is the year of this story? I was surprised to have Melanie wearing tight jeans. I pictured this pre WWII, not a time girls wore tight jeans.

Melanie is a psychopath. She casually breaks Agnes' collar bone, then leaves her on the shower floor in agony. When she does speak of it, it is with the casualness of a person who spilled a glass of water. I still don't understand why she is still kept at the orphanage. And, they want to give her responsibility for medical procedures? Thank goodness she declines. She would be the angel of death.

How is everyone doing? I am just about finished with this weeks chapters. Jennifer is briefly unavailable so has asked me to co-lead for her for a bit.

Irene, is seems this story is in the 1940s, I think. I was surprised that Melony was wearing tight jeans as well (when she went to talk to Larch and had the barette hidden in her pocket). I also agree that she appears to have psycopathic tendancies. She was very unconcerned about having seriously injured the other girl. And it is odd that they say she is now 24-25 years old. Would someone have honestly been kept at an orphanage until that age?

What are everyone's thoughts on Homer and his sudden decision to leave with the couple that came for the abortion. Is it surprising that they were so willing to take him with them?

I thought the arrival of that couple and Homer's sudden leaving odd given what we have been told of Homer early on, his refusal to stay at a foster home. Although I understand that we do not act exactly the same way all our lives, a character with his personality would be expected to struggle a bit with leaving.

I am also surprised by the staffing. We have 2 nurses and a doctor working in the boys ward and one woman, Mrs. Grogan in the girls ward? That is not reasonable.

I think it is such sloppiness with details that make me dislike John Irving as a writer.

It almost seems like the two nurses and doctor are more for the hospital, for the women coming to give birth and have abortions, and taking care of the boys ward is just a side job for these 3 people? Maybe both the boys and girls were left alot to fend for themselves, as there doesn't seem to be much supervision of Melony.

I am not sure. The nurses and Mrs. Grogan seem to do whatever little care taking is going on. They supervise the reading of Jane Eyre, change the sheets of the bed wetters, do all sorts of little things. I agree the kids are minimally supervised. Homer and Malenie can destroy a shack without anyone knowing. But, someone has to cook the food, clean the facility, do laundry, bath, change and feed the infants, keep kids from killing each other or themselves, but no other personnel is even hinted at in passing. Of course, this is necessary if they are performing illegal abortions. If cooks and laundresses and janitorial staff, not to mention care givers for the infants, were present, the secret would get out. A reader has to accept this limited world functioning just fine in order to accept the plot line.

I think Homer leaving with Candy and Wally is out of hurt and possibly anger towards Dr Larch. He has told Dr Larch he doesn’t want to be involved in the abortions anymore but was forced to see one performed. He loves Dr Larch as he would a father and I think he feels pushed away or not understood. The fact that they both say they love one another upon departure shows this.

Melody it seems to me is harbouring a lot of hurt inside herself especially with Homer breaking his promise to her and she then hurting Mary Agnes so awfully in the shower to almost punish someone for his betrayal. To me she believes that everyone she loves leaves her at some stage, her mother when she was 4 or 5 on the doorstep and now Homer.

Also she wasn’t able to find out who her mother was because of the lack of records so instead has gone to look for Homer.

I must agree with you guys the whole running of this orphanage is very strange. Definitely not managed well at all. It is a wonder that more things haven’t gone wrong like when Curly was pushing David Copperfield in the box and decided to ‘launch� him.

Hi ladies. My apologies for dropping off the radar in the midst of my group read, but I do have a good excuse- and a slightly ironic one- I'm pregnant! It's made me quite ill and exhausted and I haven't read anything in weeks as a result. I hope you've kept reading and hopefully enjoying this book. I do plan to try to keep reading it, but I'm awfully far behind. Feel free to keep discussing and thanks for your understanding!

Congratulations Jennifer, how exciting and wonderful!!

I so feel your pain though, my first pregnancy I was vomiting and nauseous for the first 4 months and my second pregnancy I kept on fainting at the drop of a hat, became quite embarrassing at times!

How does everyone feel about poor Senior, I truly hope that someone picks up on what is truly wrong with him instead of labeling him an alcoholic.

Congratulations Jennifer

Finished chapter 8 last night. I have to admit that it is becoming a bit of a slog. It feels as if nothing is happening. I suppose that Irvine is trying to develop the characters, but it feels as if it is the same insights over and over.

I am wondering more about the title of the novel. So far the rules posted in the cider house are just another detail focusing the setting. I wonder how they will become significant enough that they rise to be the title.

I finally got my question of time period answered. We just saw the bombing of Pearl Harbor. That means we have been through the Great Depression and it never touched this orphanage. That does not seem possible.

Congratulations to you, Jennifer!

I am also a tad bit behind, about half way through chapter 8 (heck of a co-leader I am! LOL)

Juliette, I felt sorry for Senior too. It seemed sad that so many thought he was just an alcoholic and didn't realize that he actually had a medical conditon.

Irene, I have wondered too about the Cider House Rules, as they seem an insignificant part of the story, so why name the book after them?