Fantasy Book Club discussion
General fantasy discussions
>
What kind of fantasy would you LIKE to read?
I agree to a point about Paolini. He isn't one of the greatest writers I've read and his first book is predictable but the sequels are much less so. I probably won't read the last book though...can't remember the third.
A heroic fantasy with the epic scale of Lord of the Rings, as a trilogy.
Traci wrote: "I agree to a point about Paolini. He isn't one of the greatest writers I've read and his first book is predictable but the sequels are much less so. I probably won't read the last book though...can..."I agree with you, I wasn't trying to say he was one of the greatest ever, but it is pretty good! And yes I think that parts of the first book can be predictable, to a point (but many books are).
I would really recommend that you finish off the series! To me, the last book was by far the best! I reread the first three the two weeks prior to the release and I must say, I really enjoyed them the second time through because I picked up on so much more that isn't directly evident.
I found long ago that I love so many types of book (and so many types of fantasy) that pigeon holing was almost impossible, so much depends on the author and each given story.Like Jim I grew up in the country, also I grew up in the 50s/60s and availability wasn't great. Even after I left home and was on my own it was a time when finding a given book could be hard. Like him there were "sets" and "trilogies" I found a single volume of and then couldn't run down the rest.
I read The Guns of Avalon (the second in Zelazny's Amber books) in 1974. It was '76 before I found Nine Princes in Amber. I also read Jewel in the Skull in '74. It was years before I found the rest of the Hawkmoon novels and then tracked down the Elric novels and so on. Now, I can go on line and find all of them in a variety of editions, hard back, paperback or trade paper, new or used.
Also defining books can be hard. I love good epic fantasy. The problem is what I call "good" may not be what someone else calls "good". I love The Lord of the Rings and was told by people, if you like LotR you'll like Song of Ice and Fire. I got through the first one okay (just "okay"), by the second I knew I didn't agree, and by the third I'd chucked the series. Yet many people love both series.
I was never a big "hard boiled detective" fan. I have read a few mysteries I liked fairly well, but will never be a mystery fan. So, I'd never picked up Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books. That had been the BIG selling point in most synopsis I had read...mystery and magic, a hard boiled detective who's also a wizard. Yah, okay, fine. Never interested me.
Till I tried them. Now I'm a huge Dresden fan, one of my all time favorite series. It got me to try other urban fantasies, most of which I've been lukewarm about, but some I've really liked.
It causes me to try many books I eventually don't care for, but mostly I try to take each book on it's own merits (I'm human and therefore not free of prejudice, so I'm sure I fail at that a lot...but I try). It probably gives me more to put into my "trade, sell or give away" bag, it also intros me to new things I'd have missed otherwise.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I found long ago that I love so many types of book (and so many types of fantasy) that pigeon holing was almost impossible, so much depends on the author and each given story.Like Jim I grew up i..."
I think thats the important part about reading, trying those new things that are out of your usual boundaries. You might come across some total crap, but to me its worth it for the diamond in the rough.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I found long ago that I love so many types of book (and so many types of fantasy) that pigeon holing was almost impossible, so much depends on the author and each given story.Like Jim I grew up i..."
You really express yourself well Mike. I say 'Here, Here' and raise my cup to the Paladin.
(holds up empty glass for a share of whatever your having) :)
Nope, most books are not predictable, and epic fantasy should never be. If I figure out that ending, I usually stop reading it.There was a time that I was so picky that I wouldn't read a book if it dealt with the sea, a boat trip or something like that. Then I was reading Robert Jordan and all of a sudden he introduced the Seafolk. I was so close to abandoning the series, but I decided the pros outweighed the cons. Now I look forward to a sea voyage.
There's so many subjects that come up in epic fantasy that won't come up in any other genre. The others are so limited, IMO. L.A. Banks is one of the few epic fanasy authors that doesn't limit herself the way all the others in the field do, and her VHL series is finished, and 10 out of the 12 books are excellent. That's why she's my favorite. I'm so glad I didn't abandon that series. Karen Chance also pushes the envelope, although her character development is not the best, but I do enjoy her history and characters.
Damali, I'd never run across Banks or Chance. I just put Minion on hold at the library. (thanks)Have you run across The Noble Dead series, by Barb and J.C. Hendee? It's the same sort of subject in a more traditional or non-urban fantasy setting. The first one is Dhampir.
Mike, most people read Minion, and abandoned the series, because it is just an average book. But I haven't met anyone who's read past the third book, and didn't grow to love the series. The rest of the series literally blew me away.Karen Chance feels like you're on a roller coaster ride, and you can't get off of it. I was so stressed out after I read the first book. LOL! But I hung in there, and now I look forward to her *high* action fantasy.
And neither one of those authors are predictable. I didn't know what the heck was going to happen from one moment to the next.
I haven't heard of the Noble Dead series...
So...I take it you like the Banks books?????LOL
It's my all-time favorite series. 2nd is Jordan, 3rd is J. Carey.
Jim Carey writes????? Hope it's better than his acting.Okay kidding aside, I'm not familiar with "J. Carey" and nothing comes up under that name. What's he or she written?
Oh...okay. I am familiar with it.
I agree about Dresden Mike, i also put off reading Dresden even though a lot of people rave about it, because of him being a detective. I am not into the whole Sherlock Holmes solving murder kind of storys, but Dresden was a pleasant suprise. Reading Grave Peril now.
I think you'll notice the books hit their stride there or the next one Summer Knight.Hope so, these are some of my favorite books.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I think you'll notice the books hit their stride there or the next one Summer Knight."Any book that involves (view spoiler) is on my short list for Best! Book! Ever!
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "That was Dead Beat, in the running for my favorite of the Dresden series. LOL"Ah! Couldn't remember exactly which one. Another series I need to revisit soon . . .
I'd like to read a series with complex likeable/loatheable characters, where there are no real good guys or bad guys, just people capable or making bad decisions they think is good, and vice versa. I'm also looking for a self-contained narrative that doesn't take too long to build itself up.I am not opposed to cliches because they are inevitable and necessary, the cliche is the foundation of popular in my book, but a new take on an old and oft repeated system would be preferable. Also, please no such things as God Kings or Magician Knights, that's awfully close to God modding in fiction, and makes for over the top characters unless handled well. Magic should serve the story, not define it, it can be unexplained, but please not random.
Anyone know of books that fit?
Just sounds like life to me...
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "...I also read Jewel in the Skull in '74...."Small world. I read it that year, too. It also took me forever to get the rest of the Moorcock's books. I remember that I got that book along with The Valley of Creation, Boston Blitz, & Chinese Puzzle.
We had to take the train up to NY & my step father bought them from a news stand at the train station to shut me up. Those were the only books he ever bought me. I never cared much for the Executioner, but still have the other 3. I also have over 100 of the Destroyer books & read most of the others by the other two authors. That's a miracle since we didn't agree on much else for the next 35 years.
;-)
Woolfie wrote: "I'd like to read a series with complex likeable/loatheable characters, where there are no real good guys or bad guys, just people capable or making bad decisions they think is good, and vice versa...."Or how about the Malazan series by Steven Erikson?
I read the Executioner books Jim, at least back then (once Pendleton stopped writing them, they went down hill, if you can imagine that LOL). I started reading them before I went into the army. Once I got out ('75) I didn't get back into them.I've only got a passing knowledge of the Destroyer series... Even recently I've been temped to read a few. I have some of the Man From U.N.C.L.E. books from the '60s. Nostalgia, you know, LOL.
The Malazan books look promising, and I've not read any Abercrombie yet, but I'll certainly look into it, thanks!Mike, yes it is like life, that's what good fantasy should be to me, a fantastical version of life, what I like to think of as the 'fantareal'.
I'm glad you told me...now I have an authoritative answer....(o_o)
LOL...humor, arr, arr....
Memories of Mork.
I agree that a lot of high fantasy seems to depend on dragons and elf-like beings and things that resemble orcs a bit too much, but there is enormous breadth throughout the genre. I stumbled upon Carol Berg's writing last year, and she honestly has excited me more than any writer I've read in the last 10 years. Her books are rich in great writing, great story, and unbelievable characterization. I would recommend her any time. Another writer I stumbled across a couple of years ago is S. A. Bolich, who seems to have only a couple of books out so far but they're both well worth reading. One is a short story put out as an ebook; the other is a full-length novel that most definitely does not have any of the usual tropes except a vaguely medieval setting on a planet that is not Earth. I really liked Firedancer because it seemed to avoid so many of the tired plot lines and characters seen in a lot of fantasy I've read.
I did like Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind, but for some reason I have no desire to read the second one. I also liked Melanie Rawn's Sunrunner series, right up until the end, which was disappointing, but it was a good read for all 7 books before that. The Empire series by Janni Wurtz and Raymond Feist was really good, with a female protagonist who for once is not the kick-ass swordswoman but a quite genteel lady who happens to be smart and an original thinker.
I'd recommend any of these books for people looking for fantasy that doesn't borrow straight from Tolkien and yet is firmly within the genre.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "...I've only got a passing knowledge of the Destroyer series..."While Richard Sapir was writing them, they were better & funnier. He quit in the mid #60's or so, I think, although his name is still on many of them but he is long dead. He was a political columnist & had a dry wit that counterbalanced Murphy's slapstick comedy very well. Still, they're not great literature, just amusing, especially if you remember the politics of the day.
I remember them somewhat and had one friend who was big into them (he named his D&D thief in my game Remo). As for not being great lit, a lot of what I read isn't great lit. but some of those are good reads. They're what we often call brain candy.
Jim wrote: "Wastrel wrote: "I'd like to read brilliant epic fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't think any has been written since Tolkien. [There's been lots of enjoyable-if-you're-into-it epic fantasy, and some ac..."I like Martin, and probably Donaldson as well (haven't re-read in a long time, though), but neither has either the depth or the skill that Tolkien had (or that great writers outside epic fantasy have). I made this comparison in a review of GoT: after reading the whole of GoT, a massive tome, I had less sense of the characters than I had after reading a single paragraph of [book:The Prestige|239239], or of Black Juice. Martin does, eventually, construct three-dimensional and interesting characters (though still not that nuanced by non-epic-fantasy measures), but it takes him so many words to do so precisely because he doesn't have that brilliance that great writers have.
People often talk (as they have in this thread) of the 'epic scale' of The Lord of the Rings. Consider: the WHOLE of The Lord of the Rings, if you don't count appendices is shorter than A Storm of Swords. I don't know the word counts, but A Feast For Crows (~1100pp) is only about 200 pages shorter than LOTR. Compare the two.
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE long novels. But imagine what a series the length of WoT or ASOIAF could be like if they had been written by somebody who could pack as much in as Tolkien. And Tolkien himself was hardly the soul of brevity.
[I'm not saying concision is the only mark of quality, but it's one of the easiest to point to]
--
Btw, you're right, LOTR isn't the best fantasy novel. The Silmarillion is.
Wastrel, if brevity is the basis, then I'd say Roger Zelazny is the winner hands down, but I don't think any single factor like that is fair to the authors or the books. The tones, thus what the author needs the characters to show, are completely different. Martin's characters are much more earthy & real than Tolkien's, so they need more to fill them out in the style he uses. Zelazny often relies heavily on allusions & the reader's imagination, so some folks just read the obvious story & miss most of it. This was very noticeable in a group this year when we read A Night in the Lonesome October. Eddings' characters were caricatures, fun & quickly sketched, but without any surprises. It's easy to say Eddings is the least accomplished of the writers I just listed, but that doesn't make his books any less enjoyable. I'm glad they all wrote them. I can't say one story is 'better' than the other in all aspects, all the time. Some days I like an apple, other days an orange, but often only have a banana available, which is just fine too.
Jim wrote: "Wastrel, if brevity is the basis, then I'd say Roger Zelazny is the winner hands down, but I don't think any single factor like that is fair to the authors or the books. The tones, t..."For brevity I'd also point to Steven Brust and earlier Michael Moorcock.
Both Moorcock & Brust are other favorite authors of mine. Brust was good friends with Zelazny & says that he owed a lot to his tutelage.
Jim wrote: "Wastrel, if brevity is the basis, then I'd say Roger Zelazny is the winner hands down, but I don't think any single factor like that is fair to the authors or the books. The tones, t...""Earthier" characters, maybe, but I wouldn't say they were any more "real". On the one hand, none of Martin's characters are people I could meet out on the streets - they're all hollywoodised people, far bigger than life. Tolkien's everymen (the hobbits), on the other hand, feel a lot more like people I know. That does, of course, make them rather boring, but then following around most ordinary people would be boring. On the other hand, Tolkien's "high" characters I think tell us as least as much, if not more, about real human nature as Martin's do. The world does not have many Jaime Lannisters, but it is full of Denethors and Feanors, Turins and Hurins and Thingols and Maedhroses. Tolkien's characters are "real" in the way that Shakespeare's characters are, or the characters of the greek plays. [I mostly list Silmarillion characters, because the Silmarillion, like ASOIAF, is character-driven, unlike LOTR]
In any case, I don't deny that Martin creates some great characters. But a great writer could have created those characters in a fraction of the space, with a fraction of the repetition, and with twice the emotive depth. I repeat my earlier comparisons to Lannagan and Priest, and while on the topic would mention the second and fourth chapters of China Mountain Zhang - two beautiful, affecting, realistic character sketches that accomplish at least as much verisimilitude and empathy as Martin does, but in a thousandth of the wordcount. [Her flaw, unfortunately, is that she doesn't seem to have anything to say with the words that her concision frees up].
Eden wrote: "I agree that a lot of high fantasy seems to depend on dragons and elf-like beings and things that resemble orcs a bit too much, but there is enormous breadth throughout the genre. I stumbled upon C..."I definitely share your enthusiasm for Carol Berg's work, particularly her first trilogy and Lighthouse duology were exceptional fantasy. She definitely does not do a one sided plot, or characters without well fleshed out internal conflicts. And she finishes her plots with a punch that exceeds expectations, every time. Good hooks are commonplace, nowadays. But the authors who can build story and deliver a smashing finish are not at all common.
Wow! This thread sure piqued a lot of interest! I'm glad I started it.But I'd like to bring the discussion around to: if you could tell an author to write a fantasy, what would you like to say? What would it be about?
Or to put it another way, what do you think is being ignored in today's fantasy fiction?
Scott wrote: "Wow! This thread sure piqued a lot of interest! I'm glad I started it.But I'd like to bring the discussion around to: if you could tell an author to write a fantasy, what would you like to say?..."
Write a Star Wars book that's actually good?
Joseph wrote: "Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I think you'll notice the books hit their stride there or the next one Summer Knight."Any book that involves [spoilers removed] is on my short list for Bes..."
SO, so true! :)
To answer the OP's question: I love reading just about any fantasy that has great characters - intriguing, complex and fun. The kind of people I can admire, learn from and laugh & cry with throughout the story. For me, characters are the key. I'll read about them in practially any setting. It's even better if it's epic fantasy!I think too many people try to peg fantasy as "generic" when it's truly not. If you're looking for something outside the box, try a historical fantasy or an alt-universe fantasy. I don't read as much in those areas, but I know there are some great selections out there (Harry Turtledove or Naomi Novik, for example).
Others have already mentioned authors like Sanderson, Cherryh and Bujold. They do a fabulous job of breaking the typical fantasy mold. Haven't read Rothfuss yet, but I'm told he does the same.
Wastrel, I guess that's just the different ways we each digest the story, then. I felt just the opposite - most of Martin's characters were more like regular people I'd meet unlike many of Tolkien's. Maybe it was the age I first read LoTR & that just stuck with me.Well, both are easy to get, so we're lucky & have them. I do hope Martin gets cracking, though. Zelazny left me hanging & that's a drag.
;-)
I think Martin's characters are like those we don't want to know, and Tolkien's like those we would.I think both are extremes personally. Most of the people I know would be more like characters in a Jordan or Sanderson book.
I would tell authors to write what they want. There's an audience for every type of fantasy. Some of my favorite books end up being the ones I didn't know I was looking for.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote:Have you run across The Noble Dead series, by Barb and J.C. Hendee? It's the same sort..."
I've started the first book. So far so good. I've been wanting to find traditional vampire stories, because most of paranormal vamps (excluding the L.A. Banks and Karen Chance series) has been one note for me.
Juliet Marillier's WILDWOOD DANCING touches on original vampires.
Damali wrote: "I'm probably one of the few fantasy readers who's never read Lord of the Rings. I've seen the movies several times, and nothing in them made me want to run out and get the books. It's probably a de..."Honestly I've never read LOTR either, I thought I was the only one, Ha. Also, I'm so glad that Juliet Marillier got a shout on here, she really deserves it (even if her books lean a bit towards YA).
Patricia Mckillip is one of my favorite authors, she's worth the money :) Her books can be a bit slow paced but the writing style is incredible. I'd recommend reading Riddle-Master: The Complete Trilogy from her to start with.
$12.99 plus tax, for a McKillip ebook? I wouldn't even pay that much for a Marillier novel, and it's a given that I'll love her. :D
Damali wrote: "$12.99 plus tax, for a McKillip ebook? I wouldn't even pay that much for a Marillier novel, and it's a given that I'll love her. :D"Wow that is a lot, I didn't know haha. I usually go to the library :)
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Lord of Light (other topics)Jack of Shadows (other topics)
Dragonlance Chronicles (other topics)
The Book of Three (other topics)
Speakers and Kings (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Roger Zelazny (other topics)Dennis L. McKiernan (other topics)
Terry Brooks (other topics)
Tracy Hickman (other topics)
Margaret Weis (other topics)
More...
I agree! There is so much out there today that all you have to do is look! So many "sub-geres" of fantasy have emerged that I think people tend to get caught up on what books are classified as, such as urban fantasy- I think those are either a hit or a miss, but reading a few misses to find that great hit is worth it to me! I would rather keep a broad search for fantasy novels than condemn entire sub-genres, because believe it or not there are good urban-fantasy novels (although I'm not so sure the same can be said about paranormal romance novels, yeeghk!)
I think many people avoid popular fantasy because they think it is all crap that 13-15 year olds have bought with their parents money! There are many new novels out there in the fantasy genre that are VERY GOOD! And definitely worth the read! I also think that sometimes when you read and read and read the same 80's & 90's fantasy novels you loose the nack for picking up on the underling themes in more recent fantasy because the younger generation of authors convey their thoughts differently that the vast majority of their predecessors. For example, the Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Paolini, while many people have given this book a bad wrap for being a poor copy of LOTR, there it great literary value to this series, and if you follow the cycle through its four installments, there is a deep message about the importance of duty and sacrifice in order to do what is left on your shoulders. And while the story may use some of the motifs of fantasy (particularly LOTR) it only uses them to more easily tap into the readers archetypal beliefs of certain races in order to build a truly unique world and adventure.
Is using archetypes to make the reader feel like they have fantasy "insider" knowledge in order to initially grab a reader and then introduce them to your unique ideas wrong? I think that many of us, myself included, just want to stay away from the norm and have an adventure that few people have experiences. (Twilight just sucked though, I'm not just trying to be different...) But in truth, sometimes the big hype over a new series, or a new and upcoming/ young author really do offer something valuable and worth taking a break from the 1980's and 1990's back to the roots fantasy.
All IMO of course, and The Inheritance Cycle is on my mind because the fourth and final book was just released last tuesday.