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My favorite example of non-Western worldbuilding is undoubtedly M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel as shown in The Man of Gold and a few others. It's a wonderful mix of Mayan and Indian/Southeast Asian and others with a heavy admixture of Barsoom.

Other good ones: Charles R. Saunders's Imaro series, inspired by Conan but set in a very distinctly African milieu. And David Anthony Durham's Acacia: The War with the Mein books.

While fantasy is by definition different from our own world, believability is essential for a story to work. That's where research and consistency come in. Whether the author creates a whole world or sets a fantasy element in our world, that world has to appear realistic, or at least fully developed.

Diversity is essential to this, because a world is a big place with many different types of people, cultures and landscapes. That's why I am so tired of fantasy books that start with a simplistic map drawn by the author. Everyone speaks the same language, wears the same kind of clothing; or, as someone else pointed out earlier, the people in the desert areas are poorly disguised Arabs, etc.

To reach a wider and increasingly diverse audience, authors have to learn to embrace diversity. Tolkein did it fairly well - he began by inventing several languages. But anyone living in an urban area in North America or western Europe only has to look out the window to realize that most books don't come close to being believably diverse. ANd that has nothing to do with racial bias. It has to do with the author's skill at observation.

I had been thinking about Tolkien and the vast research that went into his books, so I'm glad someone mentioned him. And while Diana Gabaldon's Outlander isn't fantasy per se (though there's time travel), the amount of research she did to bring 17th century Scotland to life was staggering, but all the better for it. Fantasy readers I've noticed over the years, are a pretty eclectic bunch and they know a lot about a wide variety of subjects and any author treading into this territory thinking "it's just fantasy" will end up having to explain how they couldn't tell the difference between a flamberge and a main gauche, LOL.

Vixenne wrote: "any author treading into this territory thinking "it's just fantasy" will end up having to explain how they couldn't tell the difference between a flamberge and a main gauche, LOL. "

Simple. Put your fantasy novel in a place where none of that stuff applies. In many ways the importance of research is not to use specific details, but to learn what sort of specific details are needed.

Vixenne, that actually made me laugh. For years I've been annoyed at people who call "long swords" "broad swords". Beside that a writer who says someone "dropped the clip" out of his "AK47" or her "M16" or whatever is going to cause me to lecture the book and annoy those around me. There hasn't been a modern military rifle that physically loaded a "clip" since the M1 Garand! The word is magazine. LOL.

Fantasy readers do know a lot about a lot of things.

This should be so much easier in the day of computers. Older books I can give some slack to because it was harder to do research, although I agree they should have, but today with google there's no excuse.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Vixenne, that actually made me laugh. For years I've been annoyed at people who call "long swords" "broad swords". Beside that a writer who says someone "dropped the clip" out of his "AK47" or her ..."

That one doesn't bug me - clip vs. mag - because most people I know are SO sloppy with their speech & getting sloppier. Even people who should know better talk about loading bullets instead of cartridges. You really don't want to know the descriptions I get of computer problems. Too often I've found the computer not working is actually a problem with the monitor. Too sloppy.

I really hate it when authors use 'decimate' to mean wipe out. I know it's accepted modern usage, but it's just WRONG. The word has 'deci' - 1/10th of - right there in the beginning. Authors are supposed to be word smiths, so it really bugs me. We all have our pet peeves, i guess.

Traci wrote: "This should be so much easier in the day of computers. Older books I can give some slack to because it was harder to do research, although I agree they should have, but today with google there's no..."

I blame TV & movies for a LOT of incorrect writing. Authors just KNOW stuff that ain't so. For example, TV has horses whinnying at all sorts of weird times. People just know they do when you pull the reins because they hear it every time they see a horse. They have no reason to question it. But it is WRONG!!! Just plain Hollywood sound effects. Whinnying is a greeting, but it sounds better than the grunt/squeal & fart a horse will often make when you jerk them up.

(Ever hear a horse fart on TV? Probably not. They do, all the time. They're great ones for walking along tooting, too. Someone (Dick Francis?) included that in a book one time & it just made the book so much better for me, but it would be distracting on film.)

This is where pre-readers with diverse skills comes in handy. An author can't be an expert in everything nor will they even think to research some things, so they need to find someone to bring it to their attention & educate them. That kind of attention to detail is what makes or breaks books & movies, separates the mundane from the really good.

Jim wrote: "Traci wrote: "This should be so much easier in the day of computers. Older books I can give some slack to because it was harder to do research, although I agree they should have, but today with goo..."

LOL! That is so true about horses. A true rider would definitely know that. I remember that about horses and I haven't been riding in ages.

Ever notice those dirt roads that somehow still manage to cause tires to squeal????? Odd.

I live in hope Jim. We need to hold the line a bit or words will become rather meaningless. How do we communicate? You gave a great example. Decimate came from a practice of killing every tenth Legionary or soldier.

And calling a mag a clip still annoys me LOL. I won't put a book down over it, but I do frequently beat my head on the nearest hard surface... and yes the words bullet, cartridge, shell and so on are becoming interchangeable. I don't find that quite as annoying.

Oh well...I suppose I screw up now and again. I know it's hard to believe, but I'm sure it happens. ;)

It is, Amelia, but the point is that authors often don't know the extent of their ignorance which is why they need good, diverse pre-readers & editors, not to mention how essential research is even to fantasy novels.

Robert Brockway writes for Cracked.com & has a really funny article there called "How to Become an Author, in 5 Incredibly Difficult Steps". It's worth reading.


*** Warning, if you've never read Cracked.com, be aware that the language is adult & it might not be safe for work.

My wife, mother & daughter are all horse crazy & always have been. We have 3 & a pony now. As the non-rider of the family, I was just about born on one (as was my daughter - literally) & hop on one of them a couple/few times a week to run the dogs around the fields, so I can't help but know something about them.

Watching movies with horses in them in our house can just be painful. They'll often use half a dozen horses to portray a single one & my wife always seems to recognize the switches. When they replace a mare for a gelding or vice versa, growls start coming from my wife's side of the couch.
;-)

Whereas I, on a good day, can tell the difference between a horse and a cow, but got really cranky with a "Life in the Middle Ages" book that had a picture of a cittern that was labeled as a lute. It's always something . . .

True so true.

Chong wrote: "I like fantasy story that revolves around a hero, who is destined to save the world. Such fantasy story appeals greatly to me."

Me too! Although I feel everyone's moving on to realistic fantasy Im still stuck on the unbeatable "good always wins" against all odds fantasy

Jim wrote: "It is, Amelia, but the point is that authors often don't know the extent of their ignorance which is why they need good, diverse pre-readers & editors, not to mention how essential research is even..."

Well I don't know about safe, but the website is blocked at work for me!

I like fantasy stories in which the characters aren't so cut and dried. I've never been all that attracted to heroes/heroines who are so unbelievably good and noble.

Vixenne wrote: "I like fantasy stories in which the characters aren't so cut and dried. I've never been all that attracted to heroes/heroines who are so unbelievably good and noble."

Mostly, I agree. I was just discussing that with someone today about GRRM's Game of Thrones. The characters really develop. One in particular started off as just a completely bad guy & has now earned my respect, even if don't particularly like him. He's gaining by leaps & bounds, though.

Other times, the way the story is written, there isn't much choice. The Lord of the Rings comes to mind. Many of the characters weren't particularly humanized, but it was still a wonderful story. I'd say that sort is a minority, though.

I don't like flat characters. Heroes or villains. Just as a too good to be true heroic character can be hard to believe so can a world destroying villain.

Scott wrote: "While fantasy is by definition different from our own world, believability is essential for a story to work. That's where research and consistency come in. Whether the author creates a whole world ..."

I would love to read a speculative fiction that was totally non-human, totally outside human experience, concerns and reflexes. The only human would be the reader trying to figure out contact with something entirely alien. Could a human write such a work?

Kernos wrote: "I would love to read a speculative fiction that was totally non-human, totally outside human experience, concerns and reflexes. The only human would be the reader trying to figure out contact with something entirely alien. Could a human write such a work?"

The closest I can think of off the top of my head are a couple of things by C.J. Cherryh -- Voyager in Night was about some humans who get scooped up by a profoundly alien entity. Some of the story was from the entity's point of view. I'm not sure it was entirely successful, but it was interesting. There are also the Knnn in her Chanur books -- aliens that _nobody_ can understand -- but I can't imagine writing a story from their point of view. I'm not sure if it'd be possible to write something (at least something comprehensible) without some kind of commonality or frame of reference; otherwise you end up with Finnegans Wake.

Kernos wrote: "Scott wrote: "While fantasy is by definition different from our own world, believability is essential for a story to work. That's where research and consistency come in. Whether the author creates ..."

Try The Alien Way. A member of an alien race is the central character, his actions being interpreted by a man on Earth who is put in some kind of rapport with him. The effort is not totally successful, but I don't think any such book could be.

The Gods Themselves by Isaac Asimov. Although science fiction not fantasy. This book has the most "alien" aliens I have come across. But they're likable in a non human way.

Kernos wrote: "Scott wrote: "While fantasy is by definition different from our own world, believability is essential for a story to work. That's where research and consistency come in. Whether the author creates ..."

For totally outside our frame of reference, try the very little known Speakers and Kings by M. Keaton. The beings in this book are non physical, which would certainly challenge human based thinking.

Joseph wrote: "...I'm not sure if it'd be possible to write something (at least something comprehensible) without some kind of commonality or frame of reference; otherwise you end up with Finnegans Wake. "

:-) That would certainly make a great discussion. I've wondered if Joyce was using Finnegans Wake to pull our legs...

Thank you for the suggestions, all.

I am so excited that I have found this forum, although it seems that most views are vastly different from mine.

I cannot imagine reading fantasy that does not have one dimentional characters. Fantasy, for me is a complete escape from my everyday life. I want to live the simplistic good vs evil, light vs dark that is conspiciously absent from reality. Naturally, the escapist realm must be nothing like our own, therefore, medievil is most appropriate.

I worship Tolkien and after finishing LOTR for the third time, decided that I needed to branch out. I devoured Le Guin, Martin, Feist, Jordan, Eddings and attempted Donaldson - found the character too modern. Erikson - too disjointed. Brooks - built on the premise of a distant future, half machines, half beasts just do not gel for me.

I realise there must be more, but am not sure what.
I would greatly appreciate some input - where to turn for simple high fantasy complete with elves, dwarves, dragons nd lots and lots magic? Set in a medievil universe where light will always win out, of course.

Lena wrote: "I would greatly appreciate some input - where to turn for simple high fantasy complete with elves, dwarves, dragons nd lots and lots magic? Set in a medievil universe where light will always win out, of course."

Based on your description, I think you could do a lot worse than Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman -- either the Dragonlance Chronicles: Dragons of Autumn Twilight/Dragons of Winter Night/Dragons of Spring Dawning or some of their non-D&D-related series. Also, although it's young adult and I don't remember elves, dwarves or dragons, I'd highly recommend Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain -- The Book of Three et al.

Lena wrote: "I would greatly appreciate some input - where to turn for simple high fantasy complete with elves, dwarves, dragons and lots and lots of magic? Set in a medieval universe where light will always win out, of course. "

Sounds like you would appreciate Dennis L. McKiernan and Terry Brooks as well.

Thank you so much, I will have a look at those. Trying out Rothfuss - The Kingkiller chronicles at the moment, just started.

Tried Brooks, got up to the first beast of twisted metal doing battle in an ancient steel jungle - that's where he lost me.

Lena wrote: "Thank you so much, I will have a look at those. Trying out Rothfuss - The Kingkiller chronicles at the moment, just started.

Tried Brooks, got up to the first beast of twisted metal doing battle ..."

The Shannara series is what I had in mind. I prefer his Word and Void series but that's a bit different.

I've started a new TOPIC IN FOCUS thread, inviting new group authors to discuss why they write fantasy and how they go about it:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Readers can ask questions as well.

Scott wrote: "While fantasy is by definition different from our own world, believability is essential for a story to work. That's where research and consistency come in. Whether the author creates a whole world ..."

Believability is not the way I'd put it, esp in genre literature. I think internal consistency is of prime importance.

Kernos wrote: "Believability is not the way I'd put it, esp in genre literature. I think internal consistency is of prime importance. "

I've often said so.

Stella wrote: "To me that indicates a lazy writer who is in a hurry to get the publish trial over and enter into the fame stage of his career. "

My style of writing is usually reactive, the characters perceive a situation and react to it. I have no desire to spend hours writing tedious details about setting that don't matter to what's about to happen, except to show off how clever I am in thinking it up. I don't read that stuff and I certainly won't write it.

I like dresden files, nightside, neil gaiman type/stuff

Regarding the original question: Mostly, it would be something literary but still genre, with extremely vivid imagery that is moving. I would love a Ray Bradbury-writing style Epic Fantasy. Now that's a vision!

S. wrote: "Regarding the original question: Mostly, it would be something literary but still genre, with extremely vivid imagery that is moving. I would love a Ray Bradbury-writing style Epic Fantasy. Now tha..."

Have you ready any Roger Zelazny? The Amber books are his most famous, obviously, but I'd also recommend Jack of Shadows and Lord of Light for vivid imagery.

Joseph wrote: "S. wrote: "Regarding the original question: Mostly, it would be something literary but still genre, with extremely vivid imagery that is moving. I would love a Ray Bradbury-writing style Epic Fanta..."
Actually, I haven't. I should. I've heard of him over and over again, and I know of the existence of the series and that it's considered seminal.

I'll have to check them out.

S. wrote: "Joseph wrote: "S. wrote: "Regarding the original question: Mostly, it would be something literary but still genre, with extremely vivid imagery that is moving. I would love a Ray Bradbury-writing s..."

I find the first 2 Amber books brilliant, but got the feeling that Zelazny started to lose interest after that. I'd be inclined to suggest starting with Isle of the dead. Lord of light is, for me, one of the top 5 fantasy books ever written. The breadth of imagination, and the quality of writing and immense.

I would like to read a good long story about a different place, with a lot of detail, surreal feelings, and very vivid. One that would last through several generations, so one could really feel the passage of time and get lost in t he story. It's doesn't matter who or what the characters are, just so it's good writing, developed well form the get -go.

Dana wrote: "I would like to read a good long story about a different place, with a lot of detail, surreal feelings, and very vivid. One that would last through several generations, so one could really feel the..."

Read Katharine Kerr's Deverry books, fabulous stuff. Magic and destiny and fates played out over multiple lifetimes.

What do I like in fantasy? I like humor. I like something that strikes a good balance between pretentious and making light of everything. (One of my issues with epic or high fantasy or most of the fantasy I see on the shelves is that it seems too pretentious and, ultimately, colorless and derivative of other stories. You're not going to convince me to read your book simply by putting a vampire on the moon or changing up a trophe; I'm likely to put a book back on a shelf just because the cover indicates the story has something to do with vampires unless you catch my interest with something else. Example: I'm a Tolkien fan, but elves, dwarves, etc. outside of LOTR aren't much my thing. Jim Butcher got past that--though vampires, fairies etc., still aren't my favorite aspects of his books--by hooking me with characters like Harry and Murphy and Bob and Thomas and Marcone and a little sleuthing, as I have a soft spot for mysteries and procedurals.

I like something original and magical and quirky, like Howlers or tesseracts or demigods with ADHD who blow up their math teacher. I like characters I can relate to, with families, friends, prior lives, and foundations. I like characters that have to examine and reexamine their beliefs, that may not always get it right but that I'd still want to know and work with in the end. (A lot of writers lose me with bad or stilted dialogue or characters I simply end up wanting nothing to do with, either because they're cardboard and stereotypical and Mary Jane or because they're so unsympathetic or dark that I lose any interest in their activities and don't invest in them. I read to enjoy myself, to see something familiar from a fresh angle and maybe learn from that, not to be bitter and cynical and wallow in all the muck of what people can do to each other. (Though oversimplified is a no-no too.)

I'm not into world-building solely for world-building's sake, and I'm probably not going to identify with a character just because they're threatened or because they have skillz or are otherwise supposed to be cool. I'm interested in their character, their beliefs, their perceptions, their motivations, their relationships. And a compelling plot, of course.

The best thing you can do to get me on board is to make your story so compelling to my family members or friends that they have to tell me about it. I know that's easy to say. But I listen to what they have to say.

I don't know how useful this is, but maybe it's of some use. :)

Stephanie wrote: "What do I like in fantasy? I like humor. I like something that strikes a good balance between pretentious and making light of everything. (One of my issues with epic or high fantasy or most of the ..."

Well said.

Stephanie wrote: "What do I like in fantasy? I like humor. I like something that strikes a good balance between pretentious and making light of everything. (One of my issues with epic or high fantasy or most of the ..."

I agree... after all the genre is full of magic and wizards. Lands where they can destroy whole castles with energy, but have no electric lights. So poking fun at this from time to time is fun. That's basically how approach my own fantasy stories--dark and serious, but still with enough sense to know it's all in a fantasy world.