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Whew! I'm relieved! And I have to say I think I fall somewhere in the middle - Ioften have an "endpoint" in mind and know how I am going to get there and what needs to happen along the way, but I don't create an actual outline, just a set of notes so I won't forget important points.

I usually have an open document I call a "hold" document while I'm writing - this is the place I stuff all my notes & ideas along the way and also cut paragraphs & scenes I'm not happy with or want to move, to hold them for later...

I used to be a pantser. When I first began writing novels in college I flew by the seat of my pants. Ideas flowed but there were days when I was stuck, unable to move the story forward until an idea struck.

These days, I'm a plotter. I have a file filled with notes on characters, concepts, magic systems, and a general overview of the plots for each novel in a series. However, I do not plot out all the details of each book in the beginning. Instead, I'll write one book, edit, edit, and edit... only when it's READY do I then work on outlining in detail the next novel. In this way I leave myself open for changes in the series that I may not have planned on before writing the first novel.

Does that make sense?

I'm definetly a plotter. I like to have a timeline drawn out, with waypoints for each of the plots/subplots, so that I can keep them in order. Just using waypoints works for me, as I can then give the characters free rein as to how they get there, just have to be there at a set time, that's all.

I like this dichotomy. Is 'plotter' vs 'pantser' real writing jargon? Are there other types? If a writer, I could only be a pantser. I find organization and planning just too boring, except what's in my head.

Clinton wrote: "I used to be a pantser. When I first began writing novels in college I flew by the seat of my pants. Ideas flowed but there were days when I was stuck, unable to move the story forward until an ide..."

Yep, this is pretty much what I do.

Kernos wrote: "I like this dichotomy. Is 'plotter' vs 'pantser' real writing jargon? Are there other types? If a writer, I could only be a pantser. I find organization and planning just too boring, except what's ..."

As far as I know, Plotter and pantser are fairly common terms with reference to writers. And you either plan your novels or you don't, the only third option being a hybrid of the two. Some people plan small amounts and wing the rest.

I'm a pure pantser. I sit down, I type, and what comes out comes out. This is not to say that I don't go back and edit it later, but it lets me get the words out of my head.

I write fantasy because it's the right vehicle for the ideas I have. I also write general fiction for the same reason.

I enjoy all writing equally and read across genres (some more than most). I'd like to write sci-fi, and will do so when an idea I have needs a sci-fi setting.

As a general rule, I write what I'd like to read. If I can't find it to read, then I'll write it myself. That also works as a good filter for trying to stay original. Every time I have an idea I go and find the book that someone else has written for it already, and read it. If I can't find it then it goes in my directory of projects with anything from a few lines up to a full synopsis.

The thing I enjoy about fantasy, as others have stated, is that you tend to end up creating characters that need their own world to live in. Creating worlds can be fun, and is hard. Writing contemporary fiction allows you as a writer to leverage massive amounts of assumed knowledge. (We all know how this world works, right?)

One thing I would try to avoid doing, however, is focusing too much on the world at the expense of the character and story. I find the world tends to grow from those rather than be created and then populated afterwards.

Another filter I use is to ask myself, could this work in any setting? Often the idea could work in several and that makes it hard to choose. I often wonder if I get it right.

I grew up reading fantasy. For a long time I lived in a fantasy world. But that was after I started writing fantasy. My fantasy world is a place where I break the genre stereotypes. I've never wanted to do the whole "elves, dwarves, orcs" kind of fantasy. But neither do I want to do strange, surreal fantasy either. I like the sword and sorcery worlds, but there are a lot of stereotypes I want to get away from.

As a play on this, my current work is about a wizard's apprentice who lives in one of these typical fantasy worlds. He's got unicorns, dragons, ogres and the like (still no elves or dwarves... I just couldn't). But this apprentice gets thrown though a portal to modern day Los Angeles carrying one of the most dangerous books of magic possible. I wanted to play on the "typical fantasy" vs. "modern fantasy" concepts. I also did some heavy revision of some common fantasy archetypes. My unicorns don't crap rainbows (so to speak). They shoot sunbeam lasers from their horns and roar like lions. They are totally badass. They still only let virgins ride them, though.

My goal in writing fantasy is to enlarge the fantasy genre while still harkening back to the classic sword and sorcery stories I grew up on. I want to give my readers the same escape Terry Brooks, Raymond E. Feist and Joe Dever gave me as a kid. I seriously think fantasy saved my life when I was young and I'd love to do that for another kid to pay back the universe.

Yeah... save a life... I don't think big... not at all.

As for the pantser vs. plotter dichotomy, I fall squarely on the plotter side of the fence. I was trained to be a screenwriter. Screenplays (at least successful ones) rely heavily on Plato's concept of plot. Beginning (Act 1), Middle (Act 2) and End (Act 3).

To even start writing, I have to know at least what those three things are:
1. What starts/instigates the problem?
2. Where does the problem take the characters?
3. How does the main character (not a deity or crazy happenstance) solve the problem?

I'll try to fill in what spaces I can, but I've come to understand - through struggling for years on a single novel - that the old adage is true. The best laid plans don't survive the first stroke of the pen. I constantly have to go back to my outline and alter it when I get a new idea or when a character won't behave under my ink-whip. It took me a long time to realize I should rewrite outlines as well as the chapters. Because if I break from my outline, I end up getting lost. I can rewrite the map, but it's impossible for me to write (productively) without a map at all.

As I've said, I'm a plotter. But oven with an outline plot, you have to allow the characters to mess it all up, and be prepared to rewrite the outline...just because it's going to happen!

That sounds very interesting...a reverse of some of the classic fantasy tales I read as a kid. I, too, love to break stereotypes in my fantasy, and I shy away from some of the more "classic" archetypes - elves, dragons, etc. To me, one elf is just like another, you know? If that makes any sense.

I enjoy a great sword & sorcery tale, and some urban fantasies if they're written well, and don't rely too heavily on what everyone else in the genre is doing. My own story has wizards, but they're not exactly your long-white-beard-sitting-in-a-tower wizards. They're more like a cross between Lara Croft, Jason Bourne, and Gandalf lol. I write for adults, as well. YA is great, but my story is deeper than your average fantasy and some of the themes it explores don't translate well for kids. Your book sounds interesting, Nick. Is it available?

And I'm more of a pantser, personally. I can't rewrite outlines constantly, it just takes away from my creative process. I do keep a very general outline, more of a story arc, and write to a few key events, but most everything I do just by sitting down and writing. It works best for me.

D.W., the one I mentioned is still a work in progress. My goal is to have it ready by April. I do have one I've already self-published. You can find it on my author page.

I've always been a pantser as well. I remember before I ever had anything published, I would sit there with paper all around me covered in character sheets, maps, notes on countries that I'd created. I think at the back of my mind I always knew I'd never write the thing.

A couple of years writing short stories taught me how to be a pantser and to just follow where my heart leads, and with the novel it helped keep me going, the thrill of not knowing what would happen next :)

As for why I like to write fantasy--I think it just lends a bigger canvas to the emotions I like to write about. Trust, hate, love, death, friendship; all things I love to write about but in fantasy these are broadened with countries, lives, histories and even the world at stake. That's why I love to read fantasy too, Guy Gavriel Kay is a master of writing about fantasy worlds while keeping the focus on the emotions of the players of these worlds he creates.

Thanks Sandra.

I write fantasy for the same reason I read it. To escape into a world I really wish existed!
I started writing Royal Blood Chronicles because I love vampires and I was tired of everything that was out there, not that I didn't enjoy many of them, I just wanted to know more.
I build worlds of fantasy, magic and magical beings, intertwined with real history and historical back-drops.
The other thing I had to include were strong female characters who didn't need saving, but were the ones saving everyone else.
With my new series, Phantom Lives, I explored past lives in a new magical way. It's set in the modern world with a new set of characters surrounded by a magical world with Collier, a Civil War Plantation as it's back drop.
Fantasy is an escape, but I still need my worlds to want you to linger, and believe that it really is real, just hidden.

Some great and interesting responses in this discussion! I will say "amen" to Chris' comments in post 3. I love to write fantasy because it's often an act of pure creation. I'm not bound by the world around me...why would I want to be when I can create my own? When I create a world I have to consider geography, the races of beings that populate it, how their biology affects their culture etc... I consider that the background layer. There are also what I call "depth" layers - the personalities of my characters and how they interact with the world around them. This layer of the story is constantly changing as the characters react to what is happening around them in the story. The superficial layer is the day to day happenings in the plot: where are the characters and what are they doing? This is definitely the most entertaining layer where I try to bring out all the drama, humour and action. Finally, there is the "underlying message layer" - something I want the reader to learn from reading the story. Not every reader is going to "get" that out of every book, but hopefully they've gotten enough entertainment value along the way to make the read worthwhile for them. Now I confess, I LOVE traditional fantasy...elves, dwarves, dragons and the like. I also love some of the more modern stuff that mixes fantasy with reality, political intrigue and those "grey" characters like Jamie Lannister in George RR Martin's series that aren't really just "good" or "evil". That's why I love fantasy to read and to write: anything goes!

SJ, I like your "layers" comparison - it reminds me of working with a paint or photomanipulation program! Or a mapping program like CC3...just have to keep track of what's on each layer. Would be great to be able to delete and manipulate layers in writing like you can in graphics programs...

It would be great! Yet writing results in a "drop all layers to canvas" command...you can't affect one layer without affecting the others as well. The good news is that you can use that to advance the plot so it isn't all bad...lol!

Heh. I can imagine some issues as well - "merge all objects as single object"...no! wait! what? I've created a chimera...

There are 2 reasons I write fantasy

1)Seeing how my dad became completely lost in books to the point my mum would have to shout at him five times to get him to listen to her. I would sit there thinking, I want to do that. I want to be the kind of writer who can overwhelm people, to make them forget the time, the people around them and just become lost in the world I have created for them.

2) Bullying/life problems - I was bullied so much in school that I would daydream most of the day and create worlds and situations where I would always win, be the heroine in my personal fantasy. I did this to feel good about myself and the situations I was put in. I found these fantasies began getting longer, darker (I write dark fantasy) and full of harder and harder situations and I fought harder and harder and eventually I put pen to paper and began writing. For years and years I did this just to cope!
Then Life threw some horrible situations at me and I dealt with every single one of them as best I could and used my method of day dreaming to escape the problems and work through them. My work became darker as my situations got worse..

And they are the reasons I write what I do. I created places I can escape to and create places for others to escape to when they need it. They are my two primary reasons.

First, Victoria, I read your opening chapter. It isn't my normal reading material, but it was clearly strong. Kudos for some solid work (and yes, you may respond to me). As for my own reasons, I'm not certain why I choose fantasy. I'd say that I enjoy worldbuilding, but that'd be a lie; I hate it, though hate is probably too strong of a word. Honestly, I think it ties into my childhood as I learned and studied the fantastic, with a good deal of greek mythology. I love history, and though writing historical fiction would seem more natural, I enjoy the STORY of history, and that is something that can only be created in fantasy (in all its varied forms). And maybe, in the end, that's what has drawn me to fantasy - an epic scope, especially if I can show epic events at the level of the little man trying to cope in extreme circumstances.

warren

Thank you for reading my work Warren, very kind of you.

World building is difficult and I respect any who can do it and do it well. It comes with building culture, religion, language, customs, races and much more. Though I can honestly say when it comes to writing I am a hopeless planner. I attempt it, I really do, but in the end I just want to sit at my puter and TYPE!

I find it easier to write fantasy if I have had a bad day :) I need to be in a dark mood to write my books. I too absolutely love greek mythology and some of my writing involves it, but sometimes I just want to make stuff up! not care about facts, or beliefs, but just write something because I like the idea of it.]
I think that is another reason I like writing fantasy, there are not as many rules, restraints or anyone saying you can't do that because its not right.In a made up world, anything goes :)


The best stories are watching the 'little man' cope with harsh circumstances some of the more powerful would crumble beneath. Your work sounds facinating.

My writing is an attempt to merge Oz and Carlos Casteneda...

Victoria wrote: "Thank you for reading my work Warren, very kind of you.

World building is difficult and I respect any who can do it and do it well. It comes with building culture, religion, language, customs, ..."

I agree - I like to make it up as I go and hate other people's rules.

I write fantasy because I simply love the genre. The ideas, the worlds, the people, the characters, the magic, the plots.

I excelled in English and History back home in Barbados. It was my favorite subject, and I always wrote tons. We were encouraged to write. Projects weren't limited to a few pages. If your project wasn't practically a miniature book of good, applicable content, you weren't going to get an A.

For thirty plus years, I lost myself in fantasy books. Soon enough that became role playing games or RPGs, from TurboGraphx, to nintendo, to sega and beyond. From there I discovered games on the PC and eventually MMORPGs (Online role playing games involving a massive player base.). While playing MMOs and reading one of my favorite authors, I felt I could take all I was doing and write about it. Then I began to feel that not enough authors put a lot of action and magic in their work to go along with the plots and characters like my favorites Jordan and Sanderson. If I'm not mistaken it influenced Sanderson's early writing. Same for me, basically.

This dream grew and grew. Without ever looking up anything on writing, I built maps, I invented religions, characters, a magic system, an ecology, political systems until I had this world in several notebooks.

When I would literally dream up conversations between my characters, battles, and other scenes, and in some dreams, my own beasts fought against me, I realized writing fantasy, creating worlds and populating them was meant for me. I needed to do it, to lose myself, to be one with what I saw. And to share it with the world if I could.

The hardest part for me was actually learning to write. Not putting stuff down on paper and thinking this sounds good, but KNOWING the reasons for what was being written, the methodology behind the words, finding a style, finding a voice. At first, I came off like those I read, but slowly, I've found that my own style is developing. It will take many years to nurture and to perfect it, if ever, but I'm more than up for that challenge I think.

The most gratifying thing about writing fantasy? The reader. Knowing that someone lost themselves in my world and enjoyed my book made me say wow. I'm new to this and I don't think that feeling inside, that euphoria, when you see a good, excited review, will ever go away.

Thanks for reading. If I wrote a lot, it's because I was just a tad excited.

I hate rules :/ the whole point of fantasy is that there are no rules, the only limit is imagination!

I think my writing could be considered fantasy poetry... main influences include besides the obvious (life and some literature) heavy metal in all its vast variety, PC games with good story, and good movies... I play a lot of RPGs and action adventures, so maybe thats where my stuff got the fantasy tinge...

you can all check it on my profile here... I posted up an epic poem (the most read from all my poems) and a new, pretty recent outting which I feel is very strong

I hope you guys like it :)

Urban fantasy, i feel, is just improving the real worlds....I really wish the world was like Cassandra Clare's mortal instuments/Infernal devices. With shadow hunters, and every mythical creature going. Or Laurell.k.Hamiltons Anita Blake and Merry Gentry novels...sexy and scary vamps and gorgeous Fey

Sorry for recent absence. I've had to finish my third book, and deal with the release of book 2.

So here's another reason:

My contract insists on it...

Victoria wrote: "Urban fantasy, i feel, is just improving the real worlds....I really wish the world was like Cassandra Clare's mortal instuments/Infernal devices. With shadow hunters, and every mythical creature g..."

I loved Anitha Blake early on. Then Laura K turned it into soft porn ....

Terry wrote: "Victoria wrote: "Urban fantasy, i feel, is just improving the real worlds....I really wish the world was like Cassandra Clare's mortal instuments/Infernal devices. With shadow hunters, and every my..."

Yeah I can go with that LOL. I will admit, some of her books are pure pointless sex...(blush wildly)...but then she will bring another book out which is more story than the horizontal dirty dance. Its why I remain with them, because 3/4 of her books are great. I tend to gloss over the more porn-type scenes.

I can say honestly though, the Merry Gentry books have my attention far more than the Anita Blake books purely for the beauty of it, I tend not to mind the sex in it.

Honestly, not sure why fantasy. But I write to create characters and worlds I'd like (or loathe) to visit for awhile. I write because some days I like the worlds in my head better than the one I live in. I write because I love to read. I write because it's who I am.
Today, fantasy. Tomorrow, who knows.
; )
Lauren

Lauren wrote: "I write because some days I like the worlds in my head better than the one I live in..."

Lauren, I sympathize. I also write fantasy to escape the reality of my rather drab life. I want magic and valiant heroes, and writing fantasy seems to be the only way to bring them to me. :))

If you are looking for a publisher for you book, this rejection letter from Red Adept should give you pause about submitting to them:

"I will be happy to provide you with the critique from the acquisitions editor(s). However, please understand that the critique was written solely for the purpose of deciding whether to accept the manuscript for publication. As such, it could be rather harsh and contain some sarcasm and hyperbole. You should only request this if you have a very thick skin regarding your writing."

Cynthia wrote: "If you are looking for a publisher for you book, this rejection letter from Red Adept should give you pause about submitting to them:

"I will be happy to provide you with the critique from the acq..."

Ouch, Cynthia. Unfortunately, they are not the only ones to use critique as a vehicle for their witticism. I had a similar experience with my editor (assigned to me by a publisher who already accepted my novel). That's even worse, because I can't escape it. I'm bound by the contract.

Cynthia, that would put me off, and I reckon I've a pretty thick skin.

Yikes Olga that is worse! Olga and Will, isn't it astonishing they want the chance to send their sarcasm and hyperbole (juvenile responses of contept) to the authors. It's one thing for a publishing house to set standards for the books they acquire, but quite another to do as Olga so elegantly phrases it "use critiques as a veicle for their witticism."

I have to say, I wouldn't stand for it from a publisher. Fortunately, I have an excellent relationship with mine, and we've become friends. But if I hadn't liked him a lot, I don't think I'd have signed with him in the first place.

In my case, they changed the editor recently: the previous editor, who was originally assigned to my novel, had a tragedy in her family and took a leave of absence. I'm sorry for her, but to tell the truth, I'm sorry for me too. I don't know what will happen to my novel, with the editor disliking it so much.

I've come to realize how lucky I am with my editor. Things go very smoothly and there is very little disagreement between us about anything. 95% of what she suggests improves the books in one way or another, and the other 5% is a matter of style. She's been the editor for the first two of the trilogy, I can only hope that stands true for the third one. I'm not sure I would want to read sarcasm about my stuff; I think it would make me too mad to accept other appropriate suggestions from the source.

Olga was it the old one didn't like it? Probably the new one will. K.A. that rejection they sent me is their form rejection letter. Apparently saracasm and hyperbole is what everyone rejected can expect. The publisher doesn't want "to hold back" her editors. You are lucky with your editor. Who is your publisher and did an agent find your publisher for you?

Cynthia wrote: "Olga was it the old one didn't like it? Probably the new one will. K.A. that rejection they sent me is their form rejection letter. Apparently saracasm and hyperbole is what everyone rejected can e..."

Cynthia. Sadly it's the new editor that hates my story.
:-((

Olga wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "Olga was it the old one didn't like it? Probably the new one will. K.A. that rejection they sent me is their form rejection letter. Apparently saracasm and hyperbole is what everyon..."

Olga, I think that you have the sympathy of all the authors here for tha predicament

Rejection seems to be the standard response for new fantasy authors. Furthermore, if you don't fit the stereotype, it doesn't help your chances. I think the challenge now is for a new author to build a platform, maybe even go the self-publishing route to develop an audience, or submit a lot of work to short story publishers. Saladin Ahmed from Canada, did just that and recently has had his novel published by Penguin.

Noor, commercialism is the new black for publishers at present.

I was being rejected all over last year. One agent even told me that there was no commercial market in comic fantasy. Luckily I found an indie house who didn't agree with him, and is prepared to give me 2 years to prove that agent wrong...

Cynthia wrote: "Olga was it the old one didn't like it? Probably the new one will. K.A. that rejection they sent me is their form rejection letter. Apparently saracasm and hyperbole is what everyone rejected can e..."

Cynthia, my publisher is Malachite Quills and my editor, through them, is Suzanne Baldwin. I went to them directly and did not go through an agent at all. I was submitting to both agents and publishers at the time; MQ was the first offer. I'm not sure I see a real difference between going directly with a publisher or going through an agent, at least in my case. They got me cover art, an editor, several reviews, publicity, and suggestions for other types of publicity. MQ is trying to build a base, so they were pretty open to working with new authors at least at that time.

Why do i write fantasy? I have spent a long time playing Fantasy RPGs and online games. I like to read fantasy so I suppose I am influenced by it. I read many other genres too but I think i would find it much more difficult to set a book in the "real" world. Some clever so and so would pick up and say this or that was incorrect. In my fnantasy world it is my world my rules. There is so much more scope. If I want the real world- at least the modern one I can look out of the window.

Fantasy is an escape, for me at least.

I've read all genre's, but my first explorations were mainly fantasy. My novels are fantasies by publisher's description, but I prefer to call them stories. My worlds are made up places but recognizable. I doubt I will ever write a dragon story, vampire tale, steam-punk whatever. I like the works of those who do such things, but I think my characters lead me down a slightly different path. The topes are probably all there but not heavily so--I hope. I guess I follow the threads to find the fantastical in the familiar.

Phoebe wrote: "Is fantasy really hard to write?"

I know this is a question posed early on in this thread but I wanted to respond.

I think good fantasy is VERY hard to write. Consider that you pretty much have to build a world, you can't simply just draw from reality. Yes you can use historical models; but, even so, you will find yourself having to deal with things you know little about. Consequently, to have any kind of internal consistency, you need to put in a lot of grunt work.

Without "reality" to lean on, you can make blunders very easily that destroy the "suspension of disbelief".

I think for me the idea of the knight in shining armor, or the lone hero against the forces darkness has always been appealing. It's the thought of being something that is outside the boundaries of reality. Dragons, magic, swords and all the other things that go with it. Who hasn't dreamed about being the hero or possibly the villian.

Thanks for adding this discussion, I didn't want to break any rules. :D
I write fantasy for lots and lots of reasons... Most being that I love reading, fantasy most of all, because it provides a temporary escape while still connecting to the reader with real life issues. No, there are not many people out there who are about to be assassinated by a rival king, but the journey of a group of people having to put aside their differences and work as a group does happen more often than not.
I also write fantasy for the love of honor. I don't find much honor in people sometimes and am often disappointed at how we, as human beings, treat each other. I like to write about the deadly assassin with the honorable streak or the pirate who has a heart. You never know where you are going to find such things, sometimes, and it helps to not judge people so quickly.
It's all of that combined with magic and other races such as Dwarves, Elves and Ogres, that draw me in. Of making a world of my own that isn't perfect, but is much nicer to escape to once in awhile.