Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

troll.

....I believe this is a review requiring no one to agree. It seems you are the one dropping by and making not contribution except name calling.

So please enjoy that spot under the bridge.

Very thoughtful review. I love the phrase "creamy center of political claptrap." Out of curiosity, what made you decide to read this?

Very thoughtful review. I love the phrase "creamy center of political claptrap." Out of curiosity, what made you decide to read this?

Very thoughtful review. I love the phrase "creamy center of political claptrap." Out of curiosity, what made you decide to read this?

I don't really recall as it was back in 2010. It was probably recommended to me by someone (probably someone here but I can't be sure). I get a lot book recommendations and sometimes I read them. I try to read books that are kind of all over the map so now and then I read one that I not only disagree with but think I ought to say why I disagree.

Your article smacks of neoliberal paid troll thrashing of any anti-capitalist, pro-sustainable thinking. "Oh come on now" was the statement my father would say when i said we should have reparations for American indigenous peoples for what we European invaders did to them. Your point of view is entirely neoliberal postmodern double think. The idea that the changes proposed... 20 hour work weeks, all organic food, free trains, banned personal automobiles and intense direct democracy through local meeting houses... are in any way impractical is to accept corporate mainstream spin against any sustainable policies. Sustainable policies are exactly what the tyrant 1% are incapable of doing as it undermines their flywheel growth-profit delusion. One wonders why someone who sees no future would read about a real eutopia (Greek, for the good place, not the capitalist's lead balloon fake "utopia").

You know, saying it doesn't make it so. Ask the people of Ukraine how corporate farms worked. They used to feed most of Europe. Once the Soviets killed the "Kulaks" (independent farmers who owned more than 24 acres) things changed. The collective farms led to famine. to this day wheat is imported to Europe.

A 20 hour work week is a fine idea if you can come up with a way to produce a living in that time. A farm or any business (and yes a farm is a business) must profit or it folds. Farms and or any business exists to produce...not to simply provide jobs. That can't work.

By the way pure democracy leads to some difficult situations. We live in a democratic republic where the minority is (or at least is supposed to be) protected from the tyranny of the majority. That's why there is a Bill of Rights.

For the kind of "Utopia" pictured in this book to work there would have to be a drastic drop in the "standard of living" and worse a drastic drop in the population.

As for your objection to your father's attitude toward making payments to the decedents of people who have been wronged...how far back should we go? Do the people of Egypt owe reparations to the Jews for slavery 4000 years ago. My family came from Ireland and Scotland with some English and possibly German while my great, great (great?) grandmother was Cherokee. Am I owed money by the English for what they did to the Irish? But then my Grandfather Smith was probably of English descent. Do I own myself money because I'm from both European and native American stock?

And no, I'm not paid for my reviews...though I'm open to the idea if you know anyone interested.

I note that you are a recently joined member and you have not currently reading books, no read and rated books and no reviews...you list no books of any kind so I really have no idea of your tastes. I do however have a clear idea of you political stance and who's the troll here. You have no activity as to reading but immediately start taking pot shots by name calling. Please feel free to write your own review of this book. I think you and I shall simply have to agree to disagree.

So...you don't like my "Oh come on now"? How about Oh-Good- Grief.

Sandyssandersatt.Net wrote: "Your article smacks of neoliberal paid troll thrashing of any anti-capitalist, pro-sustainable thinking. "Oh come on now" was the statement my father would say when i said we should have reparation..."

Let's go look at your review!!

Oh, wait. You're the sad asswipe who can't be bothered to write their own review and then harasses others.

Pfft.

Why not try writing down your own opinion instead of harassing others? Or is that thought process to much for your little brain?

Sandyssandersatt.Net wrote: "Your article smacks of neoliberal paid troll thrashing of any anti-capitalist, pro-sustainable thinking. "Oh come on now" was the statement my father would say when i said we should have reparation..."

And look at that.

No books. No reviews. No friends. no photos. Only attacking negative reviews of this one book...

Come on, son! Troll harder.

Typical rightwing futureless neoliberal troll mind that discounts anything not previously existing thus freezing the future in the past.

The USSR and China were authoritarian socialist capitalist states. There have been no real communist collective state because capitalism undermine these and any free democracies with allout external and internal pressure.

Primitive people's live sustainably on 4.5 hours work. With technology we should easily be able to contribute sufficiently with 20 hr workweeks.

Pure democracy is problematic? Really? Would like to tell me where this happened before? I've been in GAs that function perfectly well on 90% consensus and minorities are not affected negatively.

Utopia is not eutopia or Ecotopia and a drastic drop in the standard of living in not necessary. A decrease in hording wealth is.

Taking no responsibility for the damage created by one's predecessors or for the current system because there is no democracy to override authoritarian tyranny or oligarchy is a cop out.

You have no imagination other than validating your dystopic present just like the existing neoliberal cretin running the world in 2016.

Have you been to where any primitive people live? I have. They starve, sometimes, and they certainly work longer than 4.5 hours a day. They get sick a lot, because they don't know or take time to boil their water and keep their latrine far enough from their water source. Et cetera. Any group wanting to live simply is going to work long, hard hours. Cleaning vegetables. Boiling water. Your ideas are pie in the sky.

That is because the capitalist's like the USA have turned their sustainable regions into dependent victims of neoliberal exploitation of resources. American indigenous peoples were successful and sustainable for 10,000 years before European genocide and exploitation, as were Hawaiian peoples before US violently colonialized them. Remove colonial exploitation for greedy profit and these "primitive" people can return to the same sustainable state that made them such a taste treat for the foreign empires. You are buying into seeing only the narrow band of reality that the 1% want you to focus on. See the bigger picture like Ecotopia portrayed and we can free ourselves from the tyranny of the 1%.

No, not everything is about the US or us. This was in Africa. You are deluded!

People died before the age of 40 in those societies!

If you want to die, usually horribly, before the age of 40, be my guest.

My Malian friends would laugh themselves sick over your comments.

I think we're just feeding the troll now folks. To say that the Soviet Union was in any way capitalist is a bit laughable (as a matter of fact I'm to that point. I also don't know the age of " Sandyssandersatt" sounds young however). I'd love to see the reaction of Lenin had he been told he was in any way capitalist.

Now the Communist Chinese have swung toward capitalism as they found that their form of Marxist communism wasn't working. Also they're environmental situation makes the one in the west look mild.

Also...the glorious life style of the native peoples, yes. Teeth that decayed and rotted painfully from the mouth, life spans of up to 40 years! Let us also not forget rampant venereal disease (that's something they can list as having sent back to Europe to get back at them). They migrated yearly if they were the plains tribes. If however they were the more advanced eastern tribes they warred yearly over "Kentuck" or Kentucky the Dark and Bloody Ground where the Iroquois and Cherokee (again) warred over the right to claim it as a hunting ground with the smaller tribes being forced to choose sides.

Humans are humans the noble savages of the past lived a rough life. Are you aware that the month we call February was called "The Moon of Starvation" by the Iroquois? The infant death rate was astounding. Infection meant death in almost all cases...

And frankly I like indoor toilets. I grew up on a farm, outhouses can get very cold in the winter.

Frankly I'd love to have a society where we could all have a spot and live but someone always thinks they need to be in charge. the best that we can do is limit the power of government and the damage it can do..."taking care of us".

The entire world before foreign empires sought riches. Africa is included. That entire continent has been jacked for 3 centuries plus. Pre-agricultural empires and hunter-gatherers lived long, peaceful lives. You need to read John Zerzan on this for references to the anthropologists who are now getting the truth out from under capitalist grunt-caveman propaganda. You should ask your Malian friends what is known of how the deep ancestors lived before attacking invaders and the times when they lived on the land without outside influence by people with superior technologies attempting to steal their resources. A world without empire is possible if we stop our empires from proceeding. They are OUR empires you know.

That sady person is deluded. But amusing. I'd been having a bad work day but getting to laugh at sady is a highlight.

Sandyssandersatt.Net wrote: "The entire world before foreign empires sought riches. Africa is included. That entire continent has been jacked for 3 centuries plus. Pre-agricultural empires and hunter-gatherers lived long, peac..."


Come on! Try harder. I need a hearty chuckle.

Typical rightwing troll response. Site nothing specific or assert pertinent facts to debate the arguments presented just call people names and make fun for yourself and think that your offending someone will raise their anger. Emotion junky. Read a book and get wise.

/book/show/4...

You folks need to research the truth of what you are saying instead of regurgitating rightwing gossip.

"...many people argue that the modern People's Republic of China constitutes a form of state capitalism[4][5][6][7] and/or that the Soviet Union failed in its goal to establish socialism, but rather established state capitalism.[3][8][9]"



Centrally planned state capitalism, whether socialist or not is authoritarian capitalism with authoritarian factories, workplaces, products, prices and consumer purchases. Real communism would reorder wage labor, eliminate the externalized pressure of global competition and have collectives that are self-organized and democratically run. This never happened in mass scale in Russia or China. Communism never happened there. The West calls it communism because thats their real enemy. The Russian and Chinese oligarchies called themselves communist but there is no such thing without self-rule and worker owned collectives. These two countries were forced labor to produce capitalist goods with some socialism thrown in.

I have sighted examples this is the first you've sighted and it's Wikipedia. I don't plan to continue this as it's obvious you are an example of "invincible ignorance". That said a piece of advice. scatter some history among your propaganda. The peoples of Africa lived long peaceful lives before the European influx?

Did you ever hear of the Zulu?

Tribal people when they do get to live peacefully (as say the cannibal headhunters of South America) still don't live long lives.

Another inconvenient fact. Are you aware that classic communism was the first form of government tried in Jamestown? Under George Percy a central building was built in the center of the settlement and all colonists were to bring their crops there for equitable distribution. Check it out. By the second year it had failed. Some people had worked their fingers to the bone to produce a good crop only to receive the same ration as those who sluffed off and produced almost no crop. This did not inspire the slackers to work harder but discouraged the workers who stopped working so hard.

Result? Starvation and some sources say cannibalism.

Enter the returning John Smith who quoted, "He who does not work, neither shall he eat".

Look, socialism and communism have been tried over and over throughout history, they don't work.

I know however this will not phase you. So I invite you (as has already been done) to read this book and write your own review. This "attempt at" a discussion has gone far afield from the book in question and I have better things to do than give you a platform to spout the same rhetoric over and over ad infinitum. As noted earlier "saying it doesn't make it so" and insisting on the same drivel over and over doesn't change it into something besides drivel.

It's a free country, believe what you choose you have that right, at least for now. Note in the above book people didn't really have that right in their utopian ecological paradise.

Number one you've ignored every point i've made and brought up absurd counters. I did read Ecotopia in 2005 and i wrote a review yesterday after your tribe of rightwing bible thumping gun toting trolls attacked me without ever arguing about issues raised in my arguments. I have never been on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ before. Read my review...

5 stars

Ecotopia is a brilliant story illuminating a possible, bright sustainable eco-future where No. Cal, Oregon and Washington secede from 'Merica and are isolated for decades and a NY journalist visits for the first time since secession. The writing is not that great but the story and the vision of a sustainable high quality communal egalitarian life is brilliant. A must read for minds open to fighting for and having a sustainable, enjoyable life based upon sharing and enjoying Earth. Among the wonderful features of Ecotopia are: all organic food and products, free public trains and transportation, banned personal automobiles, work restricted to 20 hrs a week, neighborhood townhall meetings and what seemed to me a form of direct democracy ... and ... without any influence from the American capitalist empire.

Ecotopia is my go to suggested read for all i meet who have been buried by the existing capitalist 1% dystopic paradigm and are having a hard time visualizing a sustainable future. I've been reading Franco Berardi lately and his take is that around 1977 the world transformed from a place of optimism to a place of no future and that now we are surrounded by a hyperaccelerated virtualized financialized reality that does indeed, have no future. There are unlimited numbers of dystopias in book and film but almost no eutopias. Eutopia is Greek, for the good place, the total opposite of Utopia a fake paradise and punching bag of capitalism to "prove" there are no paradises, except the rotten capitalist pyramid schemes the 1% are running now.

I chanced onto this page to copy a link to a Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ' review of Ecotopia and was amazed to see a sizeable minority of people with one star or negative reviews and started reading them. Whoa! Here's the No Future community Berardi has partially been addressing. The reviews were imaginationless, blindered by "pragmatics" as determined by the corporate PR that has filtered through our textbooks, media and social engineering for the last 40 years. I made comments and was immediately swarmed by thought police Mr. Smiths (see the film "The Matrix"). Whether paid trolls of not their responses were self-policing trollisms on behalf of the neoliberal tyranny. The very opposite of the beautiful future envisioned by Callenbach. READ THIS BOOK!

So Ecotopia was not a free country? You did not read the book. And drivel? Reading Marx is drivel? Reading Adam Smith who believed that capitalism had a purpose: creating a better society for all (which neoliberals love to ignore)... this is drivel?

I see you also have a pack of rightwing rats that run around clicking on your negative reviews to move the 1 stars to the top of the review list like Zinn's "A People's History of the United States". For God's sake man... that book is impeccably researched. Why not go after Noam Chomsky's books and make yourself look like a complete fool. You should get a job with the Heritage Foundation, the Kochs or Cato Institute or other 1% Stink Tank paid to lie about anything and everything that threatens capitalism's relentless drive to ecocide. It's like Napoleon once said... "The only reason religion exists is so the poor don't kill the rich." The same reasoning applies to rightwing fairy tales about the reality of life on Earth... scratch the surface of their arguments and all you get are transparent lies. I feel sorry for you but you still have time to take the red pill and wake up. Please wake up!

No I answered your "points" you simply chose to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with your preconceptions.

Yes I read the book. Your idea of freedom and that of Ecotopia one where people are free as long as they live within the allowed perimeters. The eco-terrorists among are happy to let us be free, as long as we use the correct light bulbs, stop using flush toilets, give up personal possession of automobiles, motorcycles (etc.). We are free to eat the foods you would tell us, drink the drinks you approve and wear the clothes you say is allowable. Oh...and as long as we give up personal ownership of fire arms (though what that has to do with the ecosystem i don't know). We will of course be free to eat sow meat and do away with livestock farms and ranches....did I miss anything?

I realize the argument is made that people who don't agree are free to leave. You are free to live as "they" say or go away so to speak. I guess you can call that a sort of freedom, but if I suggested that to someone who wants to take away my Big Gulp I'd be called a fascist (mostly by people who don't know what the word means).

I make it a point to discuss things civilly when people disagree. You are apparently on interested in civil discourse. You are just here to rabble rouse and call names.

I will apologize for getting drawn in again. Fell free to sound off to hear your self from now on. As noted I have better things to do than read multiple paragraph nonsense.

"one where people are free as long as they live within the allowed perimeters" .... and where else is this not reality?

So you don't want energy efficient, low flush toilets, to ride a bike or SHARE vehicles, ...there's nothing about drinks, or clothes, nor giving up firearms, nor meat, nor ranches...

YOU DID NOT READ THIS BOOK!

You must be very lonely and sad.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "You must be very lonely and sad."

Not only sad but a nut to boot.

Piss poor behavior and the yelling and screaming.

AND boring.

I'm sorry such an atrocious waste of human flesh is harassing you in this way.

Thanks MrsJ. As you know it's not the first time...life.

Oh, and that's the extent of your comments... to belittle. 84% of readers rate it 3 stars or above and only 3%, apparently the lonely ones, rate it 1 star. I think... you all are in the huge minority. Slam down one of those big gulps with GMO corn syrup for your victory celebration dude... bon appetit!

I find it very insulting that you would label anyone who disagrees with your stance as a right wing nut job. I'm a registered democrat, a liberal, a Wiccan and my husband and children are Native American. I would love for the world to live sustainably but the truth is that with the current population that is not possible. And to say that indigenous people lived long happy lives, you must not know any. My husbands tribe has handed down stories of the hungry times when babies were left out to die to help the rest live. Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.

"I would love for the world to live sustainably but the truth is that with the current population that is not possible."

The truth is? Really? The truth is we have a choice to make the world anything the 99% want it to be. The truth you speak of is the dictated reality of what you have been told. The hard time your family spoke of was before the Europeans invaded? What you speak of did not happen to Bay Area Ohlone. (/book/show/5...) Since 1980 there have been significant changes in how anthropology sees the pre-agricultural past and yes indeed people lived long lives in peace. The image of primitive peoples starving in stone age poverty is a myth perpetuated by whites seeking to keep power. I know of many people who live off the land without employment and although not rich live wonderfully fulfilling lives. Ecotopia blends this primal common sense that the nest comes first with modern technology and manages it so that it can be kept functional in perpetuity.

You need to research and not accept the propaganda of corporate America or anecdotes. I have yet to meet one indigenous person who thinks he is better off now than before the whites came and exterminated most of their ancestors. I have done research and what your saying is false.

It's called "denial". As noted saying does not make it so, neither does repeating it.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "It's called "denial". As noted saying does not make it so, neither does repeating it."

Yup.

It's not just a river in Egypt.

You want to meet my family? Yes there is a romanticized view of the "noble savage" living in harmony with nature and each other. Explain the human bones found in the American southwest that had obviously been butchered and cooked. There is plenty of archeological evidence of starvation, slavery, war. Why are so few of the remains found of old people? So many found with signs of disease, signs of starvation, signs of abuse.

It is simple math that there is not enough land for the population of the world to live sustainably. Unless you plan to take the farmland away from the farmers and split it among the population and force them to farm. I can guarantee that if you try to take my families 340 acres here in Wisconsin you will be in for a fight.

The only way to get back to sustainabilty for everyone is to cut the population back to pre industrial revolution numbers. Are you planning a mass genocide? I'm not but maybe mother nature is.

Tracy wrote: "You want to meet my family? Yes there is a romanticized view of the "noble savage" living in harmony with nature and each other. Explain the human bones found in the American southwest that had obv..."

Tracy wrote: "I find it very insulting that you would label anyone who disagrees with your stance as a right wing nut job. I'm a registered democrat, a liberal, a Wiccan and my husband and children are Native Am..."

Tracy, don't bother. He/She/It is spouting off things they know nothing about.

This "person" doesn't care about the Earth or people or anything that they are spouting.

He/She/It only cares about their own opinion and not the reality of the situation.

Agreed. People must be willing to change their opinions with new information. I used to believe in the noble savage theory. Too many bad novels! And then I married one and got to know the people who carried on the old traditions and stories. I learned the truth and had to change my views.

The thing about forced farming is that doesn't work either (note the earlier example concerning Ukraine). There is the looming threat of plague or pandemic due to population and the world's economy is shaky to the point of eminent danger. But attempting to go back to living without electricity etc. isn't the answer.

Oh well, this has become pointless. Sandyssandersatt's mind is closed.

Whats sad is that closed minds on both sides of the issue are what is causing all the problems. Why cant anyone compromise or look into someone else's views.

All of the problems you folks have complained about above are solved in "Ecotopia". I suggest you read it.

Sandyssandersatt, I read the book and as I've noted the use of a version of "utopia" is appropriate. It's based on unreal ideas, it's a fantasy. it's wish fulfillment. Socialism and communism in all it's forms have failed, every time.

I know (now) that facts mean nothing to you your mind is set and you are a great example of "invincible ignorance".

Now you've made your point, you don't agree, you think Ecotopia is inspired and you plan to live your life by it. Cool. Now go do your own review and tell the world about the glorious truths revealed in the book. I've urged you to read history, I have given you examples (as have others) to show this book is pure fantasy. You refuse to even consider that others may just possibly have a bit more knowledge, understanding or experience than you.

I'm through wasting time on you as it's only "feeding the troll". It gives you the attention you seem to crave. Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ offers you the opportunity to review books on your own...go forth and share thy depthless wisdom.

You need therapy.

Sensei. May I suggest the "block" feature?

I try to avoid that. The thing about trolls is that most people can see who actually needs the therapy. If forced I'll go there but I tend to just ignore.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I try to avoid that. The thing about trolls is that most people can see who actually needs the therapy. If forced I'll go there but I tend to just ignore."

I understand.

I like the block feature when on review threads because it keeps the blocked person from commenting on your review.

Sensei? Ah the "fearless leadered" group... a good place to start your therapy sessions except you will need a rational, non-biased, open mind to keep the discussion on reality (and any books discussed meaning STICKING TO WHAT IS IN THE BOOK NOT THE IMAGINARY WORLDS OF OTHER PARTICIPANTS MINDS) not Fox News magical thinking.

Sandyssandersatt, enough. Sensei is a nickname I was given in another group where MrsJ. and I are both members. You have side tracked the discussion here by repetitive arguments, name calling and insulting behavior. I believe strongly in free speech and freedom of thought. If you insist on ignoring facts that's your choice.

BUT we don't have to give you limitless rope. You don't agree with me, fine. You don't like me, fine. But take you sad and bitter nonsense to a thread of your own. You have said what you have to say here...repeatedly. We've heard it. Now do your own review.

Sandyssandersatt.Net wrote: "Sensei? Ah the "fearless leadered" group... a good place to start your therapy sessions except you will need a rational, non-biased, open mind to keep the discussion on reality (and any books discussed meaning STICKING TO WHAT IS IN THE BOOK NOT THE IMAGINARY WORLDS OF OTHER PARTICIPANTS MINDS) not Fox News magical thinking. "

What crack are you on???

Yes. Bitch.

SENSEI.

Don't like it?? Come fuck with me. It's cute to harass a Man of God because you are godless and a coward and want to take advantage of the fact that he is a peaceful individual.

I, on the other hand, am not. So if you want to fuck with someone, come at me, BITCH. Because fuck you and your book.

My Universe! This entire conversation veered off from the content and subject of the book Ecotopia and a sustainably technological society into a weird warped world of Rush Limbaugh ideologues spouting their regressive venom who would like to direct society back to The Robber Baron era of the late 1800's with GMO Big Gulps as the go to recombinant high. Get a clue of where you are. This is the virtual world of the internet that makes discussion and criticism of books and ideas possible without the violent interaction of cavemen with mystical ideas of reality bashing each other over the head. If you had READ ECOTOPIA you would have encountered people with incredibly divergent ideas who spoke their minds to each other, often in heated passion, but never in violence, to try and get to the truth. This entire discussion is lost on you folks... Someday in the future when capitalism and neoliberalism have destroyed this world and only egalitarian humans are left to rebuild it, i hope you reflect on this discussion for how deluded and regressive the system of the 1% has made you.