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Miquixote's Reviews > The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker
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did not like it
bookshelves: history, non-fiction, 100-pages-per-day, sociology, 50-65, usa

Breathtakingly mindless for 2/5 of the book, blowhard the whole way through.

Sometimes a good joke is more revealing than 800 pages of blowhardness. Pinker gives himself away with this quote by George Carlin on page 622: I think motivation is overrated. You show me some lazy prick who's lying around all day watching game shows and stroking his penis, and I'll show you someone who's not causing any fucking trouble!...

...I hope I am not the only one who thinks it is not necessarily a good thing to be reduced to lazy pricks watching game shows and stroking our penises...

Anybody with a modicum of a background in anthropology, history, sociology and economics should be laughimg themselves silly (if it weren't so disturbing how much influence Pinker has)...

Pinker proposes 5 ways that have reduced violence and can continue to do so: the Leviathan, Gentle Commerce, Feminization, The Expanding Circle, and the Escalation of Reason. The final 3 I have no argument against. But I have issues with the first 2. The state gets a monopoly on violence and capitalism is caricatured as gentle.

But there have been moments when violence spiked and recently, so Pinker has to explain it. Pinker conveniently blames Marxism (and leftism in general is caricatured the whole way through) as the singularly destructive ideology of modern times (without acknowledging the dangers of his own classical liberal ideology) and throws in 'a few other individuals' to the mix as the responsibles for the genocides of the 20th century, and the increase in violence in 1960s, 70s, and 80s. Fascism is acknowledged only as the twin of dialectial Marxism. Classical liberalism gets the nod as the ideology that reduces violence (of course Pinker would never admit that classical liberalism is even an ideology though). There is no comprehensive study of how fascism and communism came to be. It is really lazy stretch to say that fascism was just a few flukes of individual psychology, and not give credence to the idea that both fascism and communism came about from the specific conditions of a social system in crisis. Neither is it mentioned that big business actually financed and promoted fascism in Italy and Germany. That would complicate things too much.

So, nothing about communism coming into being as a reaction to capitalism... it is simply assumed that capitalism has been an overwhelmingly positive contribution to the world, since 'violence has declined since its advent, minus a few inconvenient peaks of violent wars and genocides' which, as I have already said, he attributes to Marxism and a few accidentally placed crazy individuals. Nothing either about theory, philosophy, economics, anthropology, activism owing anything at all to Marx's ideas. Marx isn't even worth the time of day to Pinker, except as an explanation for violence. This should raise the question, really can any intellectual who tries to analyze the history of modern times be taken seriously if they haven't taken the left seriously? how can you call yourself an intellectual if you just shrug off the whole left side of the policial spectrum as ideological nonsense?

So leftism gets all the blame for the bad stuff, but the increased rights that accompanied the 20th century are not attributed at all to leftist ideas or practice. They are accounted for as simply natural by-products of classical liberalism (ie. capitalism). The Expanding Circle of Empathy, the Escalation of Reason and the Feminization of society have nothing at all to do with leftist ideals. Class struggles never happened. Activists weren't leftists, they were classical liberals. These rights eventually became 'common sense'. If there any battles they were set forth by non-violent classical liberals, and always as peacefully as possible.

There are plenty of examples of serious breaches of truth here. According to Pinker, Martin Luther King apparently rejected Marx completely. Something patently false: 'King disagreed with Marxist materialism, but he found certain elements of Marxism's economic critiques of capitalism quite insightful' (I May Not Get There With You: the True Martin Luther King, Eric Michael Dyson). In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find any successful activist who doesn't find certain elements of Marxism insightful. But none of that is mentioned here because Pinker is not at an activist, he is status quo, out of touch with reality, pure and simple.

It is also fairly embarrassing for Pinker to not acknowledge how far from anything even remotely leftist or Marxist several so-called communist and their undoubtely genocidal regimes were. Something akin to blaming Jesus for the Crusades. It is not said that it is a far more convincing argument that Stalinist Russia and Maoist China were actually STATE-CAPITALIST regimes. And indeed ideological twins of fascism, but not at all in the sense that Pinker argues. But if he tried to go there, his simplistic view of everthing would implode.

Most people who rave against communism base their assumptions on secondary sources. It is clear that Pinker hasn't understood Marx (or even remotely leftist politics). As a fairly well-read leftist, it is obvious to me that there hasn't been a communist state to this day, as much as the leaders of those states have claimed to be. Neither is it mentioned how many different interpretaions of communism there are. He lumps the left all together. But if Pinker were to do so honestly, it would be quite a stretch to suggest that leftism is not about equality, freedom and the destruction of totalitarianism, oppression and alienation. In fact, you would think leftism was fascism the way Pinker describes it. Pinker comes across as a reactionary anti-communist suffering from the Red Scare, still inhabiting the frigid mental landscape of the Cold War.

But hey, when you are an authority in Harvard, sweeping caricatures and generalizations are allowed. There’s more. According to Pinker, dialectics are simply mysticism and a justification for violent struggle. Class struggle is of course also blown off as mystical dialectical hogwash. Well, that is some feat blowing off dialectics, considering how many of the greatest philosophical works in world in the last 2 centuries have had to deal with the idea of dialectics (because of its intellectual force), but the eminent Steven Pinker waves it off with his magic wand and without anything at all to back it up.

He also blows off 'intellectuals' in general because 'they are attracted to extreme ideas'. But he wholly contradicts himself when he proposes the superior intellectual value of classical liberalism. Which of course isn't extreme, it is just the obvious rational choice that doesn't even need to be intellectually defended. How arrogant can you get?

It's also fairly wacky when he argues that 'intelligent people overwhelmingly tend to be liberals'. Based on IQ test scores and surveys of people with high scores he concludes that the smartest people are liberals and the other lesser ones are leftists and conservatives. But what about the smartest of the smart (the intellectuals) being attracted to extremes? This should leave you wondering if these arguments are for real? Apparently so.

I am not familiar enough with the statistics that Pinker inundates us with to know if 'violence' has actually dropped or not consistently, progressively and continuously throughout history. But our propaganda alarm bells should sound when anyone makes a statement like that. According to Pinker, it is obvious that primitive tribes were the most violent humans ever. I have read some fairly convincing arguments otherwise, but I think it is likely the differences in opinion are going to come in the very definition of violence. The definition of violence by Pinker is dictionary strict, and very limited. Humans sometimes have to fight to survive. Pinker doesn't substantiate any difference in self defense and aggression, justice is mocked, freedom is not even covered. But when class struggle is just vain ideology to him, what can you expect?

Neither does he take on the prison industrial complex, although he does acknowledge the importance of caging up of the maximum amount of people that are considered most likely to fight back and apparently thinks it a necessary evil if there are 'a few too many' (as deterrence). Apathy or depression is not even mentioned. But of course if you look it up in a dictionary, violence isn't any of those things.

Since only 100,000 have been killed in Iraq(a disputed low-flying number) and there were at least 1,5 million in Vietnam, apparently US foreign policy is getting way more compassionate. Of course nothing is even mentioned of thinly-covered up US intervention all over the world (like in Latin America). An ignorance easily corrected by leafing through books like 'Killing Hope' by William Blum (on the ongoing American holocaust). A book Chomsky says is 'far and away the best book on the subject'. But the book has leftist leanings, and is therefore intellectually irrelevant to a religiously loyal status quoer.

Democracy is hailed as a reducer of violence, and justifiably so. However he also has an extremely limited idea of democracy. There is a crisis of democracy right now because of a lack of participation (the Manufacturing of Consent and Public Opinion) and fast-growing awareness of it. What about acknowledging the advent of a type of coercion that creates ignorance, apathy and depression? This is not considered as an element of violence of course. It would even appear to be a positive thing, if it can reduce those violence stats and keep us wanking. Even if certain types of coercion cannot be defined as violence, why not acknowledge it for what it is?


As said, Pinker targets ideology as a main cause of violence. When ideologies clash it often creates even more violence. Obviously. But it would seem Pinker is unaware of the current ideology’s potential for violence (and many have argued quite well that it is the main present cause of violence today). Currently the ideology of capitalism is being questioned by a large variety of people (because of its weaknesses). If and when that increases there may just be an increase in violence again, and not only from the Leviathan state that Pinker raves so much about.

Of course Pinker would blame the new ideology if that happened, instead of the old one and all its weaknesses that brought it to the conflict. This is ironic because he does spend some time criticizing conservative ideology for its inability to adapt to progressive change. I argue that Pinker betrays exactly that attribute despite his humanist claims. Liberals and conservatives are the only two electable parties (because neither is so different from the other and neither is at all threatening to the current status quo). But for Pinker to have his moral authority he should also be arguing that if capitalism doesn't work well enough or starts to create bigger problems than it solves (ie. environmental destruction and huge gaps in wealth and debt), it is the one that may actually PROPAGATE violence. But then again we might just sit around watching game shows and stroking our penises. If Pinker is right, that would be ideal.

Perhaps this can be avoided if the old ideology adapts peaceably. But neither should anyone who analyzes history or anthropology honestly assume that the current ideology is forever. Of course capitalism hasn’t always been there, has only been there for a tiny amount of history, but Pinker sidesteps that. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The thing is that a large amount of us aren’t convinced it ain’t broke.

But perhaps Pinker’s main point is that we are less likely to adapt violently no matter what the change. Perhaps so, but denying or misunderstanding certain causes of violence (gross inequality and oppression which lead to new ideologies) will not help the matter. The so-called mystical class struggle and violence around the time of Karl Marx and the following century were actually consequences of the inability of capitalism to adapt to its structural weaknesses. If there were enough reforms the violence caused may not have been necessary, or rather it could have convinced the masses it wasn't necessary to challenge the system.

However, the inflexibility and fundamentalism of classical liberalism would seem to have actually CAUSED the majority of violent conflicts. One doesn't have to be a Marxist to see that the capitalist system did not adapt appropriately (or peacefully) to the class awareness (or if you prefer inequality awareness) that was developing. Pinker calls 'class awareness' ideology though. A more peaceful adaptation did not come until after World War 2 (with Keynesianism) IN REACTION to THE CLASS AWARENESS. But this has been progressively taken apart since around 1980. The fear of class war retribution has diminished. With the recent austerity measures only being the latest in a series of measures to increase the wealth of the rich at the expense of the middle class and poor.

But that doesn't mean that a self-defense type of violence will not develop in the near future if the current system doesn't adapt appropriately (rising homelesseness or unemployment could escalate things). The fact that violence actually went down during the 30s Great Depresssion is almost gleefully mentioned by Pinker though. So there really isn't a guarantee that violence will increase. In fact, it would seem that the elite powers are getting impetus from implementing their austerity measures because of Pinkeresuqe ideas of how non-violent we have become.


Anyhow, if Pinker is right and the world is better off being wankers than trouble-makers, then our intellectuals should be the best wankers. And so for that reason a wanker cannot read trouble-making literature, or leftist perspectives, one cannot at least acknowledge their intellectual validity and consider them. Pinker doesn't acknowledge these debates because he is pushing his own ideology, or rather absurdly and falsely pushing the idea of the 'end of ideology' (which is actually a thinly-veiled support for the current neoliberal utopian ideal). One that is as unsustainable and unrealistic as any utopia or ideology. Keep wanking.

The book was long and tiresome in many parts, but also very rewarding in the sense that it is an incredibly revealing look at how corrupt and anti-intellectual academics can be. Pinker is arrogant, puffed-up, self-promoting and irresponsible in his ideologizing (ironic isn’t it?) here. In Pinker's mind, it would seem he has earned the right to step right out of his specialty of psychology and linguistics and make sweeping generalizations in anthropology, history, sociology and economics.

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Reading Progress

December 30, 2011 – Started Reading
December 30, 2011 – Shelved
December 30, 2011 –
page 344
42.89%
January 4, 2012 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-44 of 44 (44 new)

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message 1: by Torkel (new)

Torkel Great review!


message 2: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted I just added this book to my To Read list last night, in response to a 5-star review by another friend. But this review blows it out of the water. In the context of the mountain of damning comments here, I don't believe it is ever going to be worth my time/money to acquire and read it. Better things to do.

And amazing that two friends reviewed the book within hours of each other, with 1 & 5 star reviews.

Thanks Miquixote


Lily from your review I get the overwhelming sense that you yourself are a communist?


message 4: by Miquixote (last edited May 21, 2012 02:18PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Lindsay wrote: "from your review I get the overwhelming sense that you yourself are a communist?"

From your comment I get the overwhelming sense that you might have a problem with communists?

Actually I am an anarchist. Anarchists and communists are sworn enemies. Although confusion is understandable, as there are such groups as anarcho-communists who have very little to do with the leninist_stalinists who pinker associates with the entire left. Nevertheless any paranoid anti-leftist should probably try to understand leftism's diversity of politics and their integral role in fighting for human rights aka. Martin luther king before pigeon-holing the entire left.


Lily I don't have a problem with anyone. I don't understand why you feel personally attacked. I was simply asking the question because your review seemed heavily biased.

It seems funny to me that your first problem with the book is from the quoting of a joke. Personally when I heard that line (I listened to the audio-book)I thought well now that's stupid and moved on. This quoted joke was not the main point of the book, it was just meant to be a funny aside of an extreme idea told to make people laugh. However it seems that you became violent over the matter, and took it to be the goal that the author was aiming for.

Your statement: So, nothing about communism coming into being as a reaction to capitalism... It seemed to me that countries that turned to "communism" were previously monarchical with strong caste systems (I put that in quotes because as you said there have been no real communist countries, those that have claimed to be were really dictatorships masquerading as communism to gain support)

Also, when I listened to the book I found it to be very fair in the arguments made. He did present ideas that he didn't agree with, then rebutted them, but the reader was always free to pick either side presented. I came to this book with no opinions either way, and simply listened to the points and the counterpoints offered and found it very interesting and thought provoking.

I am a very non-political person, and actually had to look up what side left was because I don't keep track of groups of extremists. I feel that everyone should form their own beliefs instead of latching on the beliefs of any group, especially the extreme ones. I am neither republican nor democrat, nor do I follow or "believe" in any political group, or religion for that matter. I feel that most groups are both blind to reality and want to live in the extremes. For me the two rules of life are do no harm, and treat others the way you wished others treated you. In my opinion any person with extreme ideas has a closed mind and is arrogant.


message 6: by Miquixote (last edited May 24, 2012 12:13PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Sorry about jumping the gun on your anti-communism. That isn’t a very good way to to win friends is it? That is a very admirable sentiment about not wanting to hurt others. Funny thing though: that is the basis of most religions and leftist ideologies. I suppose you are trying to say that when you latch onto a group you automatically lose your ability to form your own beliefs. But I believe some groups respect individual ideas, and encourage discussion. So groups themselves might not necessarily be the problem as we are very social animals.

I also couldn't agree with you more about close-mindedness being a problem. But I can’t quite agree we should assume that leftists are necessarily extremists. Neither can I agree that 'most political groups or religions' are extremists.

The problem with it is that it risks alienating a large majority of the population . I don’t think that is your intention. Also I think we could acknowledge the importance of community, or why people need groups. Because you don’t have a problem with anybody (including leftists) we probably shouldn’t call the majority of the world's population (those that associate with the left or who associate themselves with most groups) as 'blind to reality, living in extremes'. I think that if you tried to understand why politics is attractive to some of us, you could avoid hurting others feelings. It seems like that sort of thing matters to you. I assume that because you don’t 'like harming others', value being open-minded, and being humble that this could be appealing to you to understand why people choose their groups.

I am however open to the possibility that your words have been written in a mistaken manner. I would also humbly appreciate being told the contradictions of my arguments if they are there, because that will reduce my own apparent close-mindedness and arrogance. Because I also believe we should treat others in the same way I want to be treated.

P.S. I’ll tell you what I know about leftist history so that you can see where I am coming from: Communism was a powerful force in 1st world countries too. As was anarchism. They were reactions against unbridled capitalism. Even Tsarist Russia was a capitalist society, monarchical or not. Monarchism is no threat to capitalism and exists in certain capitalist Arab countries to this day. Fascism was a reaction by extremists to communism. Alot of people died fighting against fascism (but not just leftists). If they were apolitical, we would all be Nazis today. I think that is something that is worth thinking about. Some things leftists are responsible for: improved racial rights, improved women's rights, homosexual rights, the 40 hr week and elimination of child labor in 1st world countries. All the aformentioned were considered 'extreme' ideas by status quoers for a very long time, and still are by some. Not bad behaviour if you ask me. If they weren't political, their 'inaction' would have hurt many people.

P.S.S. On my so-called 'violent rebuttal' of Pinker. I can see you find forthright criticism threatening and and perhaps dysfunctional. I realized that a little late and am trying to change my discourse towards you.

I value forthright criticism. But I also must understand that people out there, working class people especially are legitimately critical about what's going on under corporate rule liberalism. I don’t want to be anti-anger for that reason. I am angry about the injustices in the world. As are many. This is being sucked up by insane but effective right-wingers, who are often bigots, who turn these criticisms to their benefit. In my experience, working class people and middle class people tend not to relate to criticism in the same way. Criticism-demonizers and more sensitive souls don’t have the same legitimate honest pissed-offness and I need to remember that. I value more often getting out there and helping people instead of focussing on not offending people who sometimes support the status quo. I associate the status quo with a lot of injustice and I resent Pinker’s take that things are going well. Anyways I don’t agree with demonizing forthrightness, or people who try or dare to tell dark or difficult truths about existing dominant power structures. Pinker is too apologetic about imperialistic wars and poverty and he deserves to be called out for his propagandistic efforts at manufacturing our consent and continuing our apathy. If you agree with him, that is your perogative and calling you out is not the way of convincing you otherwise. Anyways I hope you can respect where I am coming from. I wish you best of luck in your readings!


Bettie

Brilliant, and I love your fencing linguistics with those that poke

...touché middleclasses


message 8: by Anthony (new)

Anthony B. I put this doorstop back on the shelf of my public library.

I appreciate reviews calling authors on manipulating evidence and scope to fit arguments.

My to-read list is long enough without adding this kind of bumpf.


message 9: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay The first few paragraphs of this review reads like that of an angry ideologue.


Miquixote pinker would most certainly concur with you


message 11: by Miquixote (last edited Mar 23, 2013 03:10AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote this last criticism by Jay, as relevant as it may or may not be, sounds eerily similar to another one above. I recall being pigeon-holed an angry communist above? Instead of rehashing the debate please try to work through it to the inevitable criticisms i received by one of our goodreads colleagues. I deal quite thoroughly with both anger and ideology (and how middle class folk tend to treat it). i think there are several kernels of truth and level-headed analysis there that deal with both anger and ideology. Middle class sensibilities certaiy have their own slants and prejudices (ideological in foundation), obsessively anti-anger one of them.


message 12: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted "Obsessively anti-anger" :)


message 13: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay Mr. Miquixote, I didn't actually read your entire review (it's quite long). I'm someone coming from a libertarian perspective and I find that a lot of libertarians will dismiss the Leviathan proposition automatically because it's a govt monopoly of force (govt is bad, monopolies are bad, force is bad). That is, reading that govt may be beneficial makes libertarians and anarchists see red, and I couldn't help but be reminded of that red when I read your review. These libertarians that see red at the idea of a govt monopoly of force fail to apply economics (a subject most anarchists hate) to their thoughts though. What I mean is, if you want less of something (like crime or violence) you *should* want it monopolized, because the alternative is a competitive market in crime/violence, which would lead to more of it.


message 14: by Aleka (new) - added it

Aleka I haven't read this yet. Just curious , does Pinker cover Interfamilial abuse /domestic violence, unreported attacks ?
Which aren't statistically covered.


message 15: by Aleka (new) - added it

Aleka ...does pinker touch upon workplace violence?


Miquixote He assumes that this will inevitably be reflected in official stats.


Miquixote in other words: reported crime.


Daniel Lomax I have to credit you for being the only one-star reviewer of this I've come across so far, who's actually read the book haha. But I'm not sure I'm won over by your criticisms. I mean I agree about him unfairly blaming Marxism but that's kind of just a semantic difference isn't? It sounds to me like you agree with his opposition to totalitarianism, and so would Marx. So he uses the wrong label and maybe unfairly blames a philosopher, but doesn't criticise the left-libertarian corner of the political spectrum as such. And all his criticisms of Communism I could find were capital-C (Communism rather than communism), which usually means things like the USSR, rather than the actual, unrealized idea of egalitarianism that yourself and Marx would support.

Also, I'm not sure some of your criticisms are fair or true - like "Pinker doesn't substantiate any difference in self defense and aggression". I seem to recall that at one point he measures how aggressive different government types are, and in different eras, and he explicitly he notes that he's only count the wars each state starts rather than the wars they get into, because you can't blame a state for defending itself.

Other than that, I agree with your point about ideologies - it's weird that he considers everybody else's point of view an "ideology" and not his own. And I noticed the same thing about him taking IQ scores as support for his position, until he gets into the realm of really smart people, and then dismisses them with psychologism. I'm writing up my own review of the book today, and I just thought it'd be worth running my ideas by some of the people who were much less impressed than I was (and actually read it). For, you know, dialectic purposes ;)


message 19: by Kostas (new)

Kostas Another negative review:


message 20: by Daniel (last edited Jun 25, 2013 05:15PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Daniel Lomax Yeah, I read Corry's attack on Jared Diamond (who makes a better case that anarchist tribes historically have much higher violent death rates). The problem with it was that he attacked Diamond for stating the facts, rather than really knocking down the facts. He does a better job here of showing Pinker's archaeological evidence to be weak, but since he did such a bad job with Diamond, I'm still gonna assume Pinker's conclusions are right on that one.

Also, his review confuses the renaissance and enlightenment for the industrial revolution, makes a point about the Holocaust that Pinker already rebuts in the book, and references that ridiculous "Reality Denial" essay to claim that Pinker's figures were wrong. Can't say I'm won over.


message 21: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 27, 2013 04:12PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Daniel wrote: "I have to credit you for being the only one-star reviewer of this I've come across so far, who's actually read the book haha. But I'm not sure I'm won over by your criticisms. I mean I agree about ..."

So glad to hear you agree with me about something Daniel, lol (the ideology part).

Hmm...Bit confused how it is possible to assume pinker is only attacking ussr-style communism though. Considering he unilaterally blames marx for the advent of both capital C communism and totalitarianism, not sure how this marx trashing can be hemmed down to simple semantic differences.

Secondly, impossible to say Pinker is not very much against left-libertarian politics as well. I remember him trashing it quite explicitly in some typically sweeping generalization interview. Youtube it, shouldn't be hard to find. He admits to being an ex-anarchist, one day he realized how 'infantile' they are. He holds in common with totalitarian lenin there.

About aggression and self-defense: yes, It may seem to be a relief that pinker makes a distinction between offensive and defensive states BUT there is a clear distaste on his part about citizen defensiveness. He believes in a monopoly on violence by the state: The leviathan. But apparently states can defend themselves. Every leviathan supposedly has that right in his mind. Citizen defense through violence is however clearly not acceptable. This argument is foundational to the book's thesis. And a main reason why i see its core as despicable.

But even his 'right to state self-defense' is hypocritical. He never goes into the topic of the US imperialistic state, (undeniably the biggest harbinger of violence since the end of the 2nd World War). This is unforgivable for a book on how violence is supposedly disappearing.

If you are still looking for challenge, try Edward Herman (co-author with Noam Chomsky of Manufacturing Consent). He makes a much better argument than I critiquing Pinker's book.:

Steven Pinker’s new book, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, is a propaganda windfall for the leaders and supporters of the U.S. imperial state...

Pinker deals with former cold warrior and pre-eminent critic of US imperialism Chalmers Johnson and his ilk by the application of the “preferential method� of research, which is his modus operandi across the board. That is, he never mentions Johnson and never addresses his facts and arguments. He also never cites Andrew Bacevich, another outstanding and experienced analyst who gives a lot of weight to the power of the military-industrial complex (MIC), its costliness, blowback consequences, and its threat to a democratic order.
There is a string of other quality analysts on militarism, old and new, who Pinker avoids, including Gordon Adams, Richard Kaufman, Nick Turse, Thomas Carroll, William Blum, Robert Higgs, Ivan Eland, Winslow Wheeler, Miriam Pemberton, Frida Berrigan, William Hartung, and Catherine Lutz. None of these appear in Pinker’s fairly detailed index.

Edward Herman: .


message 22: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay "But apparently states can defend themselves. Every leviathan supposedly has that right in his mind. Citizen defense through violence is however clearly not acceptable."

I don't think this is the argument put forth. He has made the argument that citizens outsourcing justice/revenge to the government has led to a decrease in violence, not that self-defense is not acceptable.


message 23: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 28, 2013 10:19AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Outsourcing justice? How? With imperialism? attacking 3rd world countries and imprisoning minority groups? Congrats.

Well, Jay, you've got my attention finally...i have decided to humour our friendly economic determinist a moment: Let's consider if it could be correct that a monopoly on violence will destroy the ''market' of violence. As nice, round and simple that that argument sounds...As we all know, violence is a complex mix of the genetic and social, not at all like a market. Alot like sex... I suppose we could try to monopolize that 'market' too. But wait, has been attempted by organized religion.. Outright failure...so good luck with that.


message 24: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay I did read the book. He talked a lot about how in times past and currently in lower SES communities, victims of crime are not able to take their grievances to a (supposedly) objective third party and therefor must take matters into their own hands, increasing the likelihood of violence.


message 25: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay Although, I am starting to wonder if you read it, or if you just read many reviews from people who's politics you support.


message 26: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 28, 2013 10:48AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote it is not really meritable to take jabs if you haven't a clue of the review details. Yes, pinker glosses over the problem of not having third party neutrality. yet says nothing about US imperialism (like you). At risk of repeating myself: Preferential methodology is really weak. But revealing of propaganda.
i haven't read the book? come now. i thoroughly talk about the book details, and quite originally. I challenge you to find an article which repeats my angle in my original essay. Any who have read it can attest to that. but you haven't even read my
review entirely, as you readily admit. tsk tsk. come now. Read before shooting my trigger-happy fellow.


Daniel Lomax I'm sure we all read the book, although I don't think Mr Herman read it front to back. I mean, take some of his claims:

"Pinker mentions in passing that the post-World War II peace among the giants was possibly a result of the immense cost of wars that might involve a nuclear exchange"

My recollection is that Pinker explicitly rejects this idea on several occasions, claiming that nuclear armament is an ineffective deterrent to war. For example, he points out that even small and non-nuclear powers regularly defy nuclear powers. They also claim:

"Pinker fails to mention that for decades the United States and its allies have supported unelected governments in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, Morocco, Tunisia, Pakistan, and even Iraq (through August 2, 1990); that they overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran in 1953, and installed a dictatorship"

Most of this is actually mentioned (some of it, for instance, on p281, if you have the same hardback edition as mine).

I admit I didn't find all of Pinker's explanations altogether convincing, which is not to say I can disprove them either. Where I think he did a better job is in actually showing that violence has declined, and I find that a lot of reviews, including Mr Herman's, think they can disprove that by listing bad things that have happened. I suspect such reviewers don't understand the concept of a trend, or the difference between science and journalism.


message 28: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 28, 2013 12:09PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Might be a good point about herman slipping on the nuclear thing...but that doesn't discount the main point he was trying to make at all: the preferential method that Pinker uses is a clear sign of propaganda.

Herman is dead-on that Pinker skims over US imperialism. Not to say Pinker doesn't mention US mingling, but he comes across, astoundingly apologetic. Please take into account my slant though: i am graduated with sociology, so i have been flooded with details of the crimes of the US military industrial complex.

Um, slight beef..., Mr. Herman is a political economist, not a journalist. His books are world reknowned...Manufacturing Consent is considered by many to be amongst the greatest political works of the 20th century...i am quite sure he knows what a trend is. His most famous book is actually about the trend towards the manufacturing of consent through a propaganda model in more and more complex and developed ways...

Pinker however, doesn't appear to have a grasp on politics at all, as genius as he may be at psychology and linguistics. Yes, he understands what a trend is. And he might even understand what the Propaganda Model is (no doubt he partakes in it...). Is his take on the history of activism and totalitarianism amongst the most naive i have enountered in academia or most propangandistic? Did the CIA pay him directly or his Swiss bank account? LOL

That all said, the trend towards less and less violence could very well be true. It is the preferential methodology that is most questionable here, and that is where Herman gets kudos for hitting the target.


message 29: by Jay (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay For the sake of Pinker's book, American imperialism (which I oppose) seems to have occurred along side with a decline in violence. The fact that the American government has been messing with other governments for decades doesn't mean that there hasn't also been a decrease in violence. While reading it I was never under the impression that Pinker was necessarily advocating all the things he has written (or not written) about.

As I posted a few comments back, since I come from a libertarian stand point, the idea that government increasing in size and scope along side with a decline in violence was a minor blow to my ideology, but I don't disagree with the analysis.


message 30: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted I don't believe any correct count of violence would see a decline in central America, or parts of South America, where the Americans have been fomenting anything possible to promote anti-Marxist influence, as well as pro-u.S. Corporation interests, for many decades. The number of people who have died in these activities is well know and advertised by Chomsky and others, since the basic numbers are well publicized in investigative journalism around the world - but never in mainstream media in the U.S.

Thus I wouldn't be too sure that whatever numbers Pinker advertises relative to that part of the world (if they are broken down in that way) are anywhere near correct.


message 31: by Daniel (last edited Jun 28, 2013 11:22PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Daniel Lomax He does concede that in some parts of South America homicide rates have multiplied in the last few decades (p88-89 hardback). He credits this to a mixture of corrupt government and drug trafficking, although you're right that he doesn't mention the US role in corrupting the governments.

Since everyone keeps accusing Pinker of confirmation bias though, and then citing Chomsky, I have to point out that Chomsky has serious confirmation biases of his own. When I went through a phase of obsessively researching the Iraq war I went through every Iraqi opinion poll there was, and in almost every one a majority of Iraqis said they wanted the invasion to happen and it was worth all the calamity for the sake of ousting Hussein. Chomsky's writings mentioned this not once during the whole period, although he did occasionally cherry-pick a more negative finding from the polls, when it suited his case. Since then I don't feel like I can trust Chomsky for an unbiased analysis of anything, so I only go to him if I feel like I need to hear a specific side of the story (if that makes sense).

Johann Hari noticed the same thing (scroll down to the short article called "Hurrah! Chomsky notices the Iraqi opinion polls!"):




message 32: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Well I've often wondered about this sort of thing with Chomsky. But be that as it may, for my money I would pick Chomsky's version (though it may not tell all) of almost anything in the modern world as the one that tells more Truth than any other version.

I suspect his somewhat cynical response to a question about this would be along the lines of "I don't need to mention those things, that's all you find in the mainstream media, why do I need to repeat the stuff that's out there already?" And he would be right.


Miquixote so glad you mentioned cherry picking, Daniel!

If Chomsky, Herman, or even Pinker overlook large amounts of data in favor of that known personally, "selective use of evidence" and rejects material unfavorable to an argument,this is obviously problematic.

Along those lines we should practice what we preach. I really wish this discussion would take in the complete picture instead of suppressing evidence, or using the fallacy of incomplete evidence.

Unfortunately, taking in the bigger picture involves time. It means we must read each other's ideas, and books and books of giant intellectuals. We are attempting to dismiss each other's ideas as well as those of world-class intellectuals in paragraphs. Not likely. Anyways it certainly can't be done honestly with cherry-picking, or not reading through and discussing things we criticize, and thoroughly. Ok, maybe it's boring for some. Maybe I wrote too much for you. Great. If it's boring for you, don't bother.

But cherry-picking seems to be happening here alot. Cherry-picking one minor piece of information eg. the nuclear argument by Herman. Or Chomsky's opinions on one particular and controversial aspect of Iraq opinion polls while minimizing their bigger argument (that of the illegality and illegitimacy of the Iraq war or even bigger -US imperialism) is a fallacy.

Do us Pinker critics do the same? Let's see his main thesis:

Pinker proposes 5 ways that have reduced violence and can continue to do so: the Leviathan, Gentle Commerce, Feminization, The Expanding Circle, and the Escalation of Reason. The final 3 I have had no argument against. But I have issues with the first 2. The state gets a monopoly on violence and capitalism is caricatured as gentle. Pinker does not give any legitimate or substantiated argument on either of the last 2.

Does a government monopoly on violence (The Leviathan) reduce violence? If one does want to prove that, it is fundamental to consider 'the opposing views of outstanding and experienced political analysts who give a lot of weight to the power of the military-industrial complex, its costliness, blowback consequences, and its threat to a democratic order.' If this giant array of anti-MIC work is wrong, it absolutely must be proven so, methodically and rigorously, point-by-point. This has not been done. Not worth Pinker's time because he is a propandistic writer, very likely paid off by the CIA.


Miquixote Concerning his 5th point: Has capitalism been gentle? This is obviously an extremely ideologically tainted debate and should be considered duly. Irregardless, his naive or propagandistic dismissal of Marx's legacy is overwhelmingly ridiculous. Ask any political scientist of reputable character of Marx's influence, and they won't say it has been wholly negative. But it would seem Pinker is above serious political analysis.

The argument that Chomsky may have been wrong about Iraq opinions ( but I have my serious doubts about the legitimacy of any of those US-sponsored polls in Iraq) has only a minor importance in the big picture of Chomsky's really astounding array of research into US imperialism.
Whether or not the Iraqi population wanted the wholly illegal attack on Iraq to initially occur is still only one aspect of polls of the war on Iraq.

But in the bigger picture, there isn't any doubt on the part of even an impartial observer on the illegitimacy and illegality of the Iraq War. There is overwhelming international agreement on its illegality. Any other opinion is neo-con George Bush style garbage. Neither is it possible to brush off the Iraq War controversy as something only from the left side of the political spectrum.

The following is a series of opinion polls with sources assembled of the Iraqi population. There is certainly a lot of contradictory evidence below. Something likely indicative of intense propagandistic measures being applied:

Directly after the invasion, polling suggested that a slight majority supported the US invasion.[9]
The US government has long maintained its involvement there is with the support of the Iraqi people, but in 2005 when asked directly, 82�87% of the Iraqi populace was opposed to the US presence and wanted US troops to leave. 47% of Iraqis supported attacking US troops. However, in the same poll 77% of Iraqis said that ousting Saddam Hussein had been worth the hardships brought on by the war and that 64% of the ones polled said Iraq was going in the right direction.[10]
Other polls conducted between 2005 and 2007 showed 31�37% of Iraqi's wanted US and other Coalition forces to withdraw once security was restored and that 26�35% wanted immediate withdrawal instead.[11][12][13]

Another poll conducted on September 27, 2006, found that seven out of ten Iraqis want US-led forces to withdraw from Iraq within one year. Overall, 78% of those polled said they believed that the presence of US forces is "provoking more conflict than it's preventing." 53% of those polled believed the Iraqi government would be strengthened if US forces left Iraq (versus 23% who believed it would be weakened), and 71% wanted this to happen in 1 year or less. All of these positions were more prevalent amongst Sunni and Shia respondents than among Kurds. 61% of respondents said that they approve of attacks on US-led forces, although 94% still had an unfavorable opinion of al-Qaeda.[14]
Despite a majority having previously been opposed to the US presence, 60% of Iraqis opposed American troops leaving directly prior to withdrawal, with 51% saying withdrawal would have a negative effect.[15][16]
A March 7, 2007 survey of more than 2,000 Iraqis found that 78% of the population opposed the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq, that 69% believed the presence of U.S. forces was making things worse, and that 51% of the population considered attacks on coalition forces acceptable, up from 17% in 2004 and 35% in 2006. In addition:[12]
64% described their family's economic situation as being somewhat or very bad, up from 30% in 2005.
88% described the availability of electricity as being either somewhat or very bad, up from 65% in 2004.
69% described the availability of clean water as somewhat or very bad, up from 48% in 2004.
88% described the availability of fuel for cooking and driving as being somewhat or very bad.
58% described reconstruction efforts in the area in which they live as either somewhat or very ineffective, and 9% described them as being totally nonexistent.
A 2007 survey for the first time asked ordinary Iraqis their view on the highly contentious draft oil law. According to the poll, 76 percent of Iraqis feel inadequately informed about the contents of the proposed law. Nonetheless, 63 percent responded that they would prefer Iraqi state-owned companies � and not foreign corporations � to develop Iraq’s extensive oil fields.[13]


message 35: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 29, 2013 09:03AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote 1. ^ Most Iraqis in Baghdad welcome US: NDTV poll The Indian Express
2. ^ "What the Iraqi Public Wants" -A WorldPublicOpinion.org Poll-, Program on International Policy Attitudes, January 31, 2006
3. ^ "The Iraqi Public on the U.S. Presence and the Future of Iraq" (PDF). World Public Opinion. 27 September 2006. Retrieved 23 November 2008. 
4. ^ a b Iraq Poll conducted by D3 Systems for the BBC, ABC News, ARD German TV and USA Today. More than 2,000 people were questioned in more than 450 neighbourhoods and villages across all 18 provinces of Iraq between 25 February and 5 March 2007. The margin of error is + or � 2.5%.
5. ^ a b Iraqis Oppose Oil Development Plans, Poll Finds (August 6, 2007) (Oil Change International, Institute for Policy Studies, War on Want, PLATFORM and Global Policy Forum)
6. ^ "The Iraqi Public on the US Presence and the Future of Iraq" (PDF). World Public Opinion. September 27, 2006. Retrieved 23 November 2008. 
7. ^ Most Iraqis in Baghdad welcome US: NDTV poll The Indian Express

This is some of the most contradictory polls I have seen. Forming an opinion here is a mighty task if one wants to be honest.

But ok, let's not just pick on Chomsky. He is of course only one man. There a huge amount of writers who have delved into US imperialism (not just in Iraq!). Pinker doesn't go near any of them. Neither do any in this discussion. Really, if you want to do so, one must do so step-by-step and not cherry-pick one or two easy pickings.

Chomsky, however, upon further reflection, is a very bad choice to cherry-pick. In fact it is pretty hard to find a more respectable intellectual in the world. How arrogant can one be to cherry-pick a line from this guy who has written upward of 50 books on the subject and claim he is a preferential methodologist without reading a single piece of literature from his part.

Chomsky is justifiably famous for taking on the mainstream 'experts', but by no means is he alone. Nobody here is willing to take on that massive group of experts Herman mentions. Instead it is cherry-pick one line by Chomksy or Herman, and dismiss their entire line of political work (overwhelmingly considered amongst the best the world has seen in the last century by political experts). It is so ironic to use cherry-picking as a dismissal of so-called cherry-picking...

If we compare Pinker's book on violence to Chomsky or Herman's fifty-odd books, and half a century of research in terms of comparative evidence, one can't honestly go there. It would be seriously dishonest. How can one dismiss Chomsky and Herman without reading a single book on their part? The level of bias is so overwhelming it is laughable.

Neither shall I negate Pinker's entire body of work on linguistics because of one propagandistic book on politics. But Pinker's a rookie on politics. He's got a very long way to go on Chomsky or Herman.

Opinions should be formed by level-headed analysis and deep research into dozens of books on the subject. If Pinker wants to write another dozen books and disproves everything Chomsky or Herman have said, great. But he has a long way to go. As do all commentators here. Perhaps we need to start using bibliographies here on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ? I realize I am coming across quite reluctant to buy what you guys have say, but I come from a quantitative and qualitative research background (in other words: evidence and argument). Have you anti-Chomsky/Herman guys read any books on US imperialism? newspaper articles don't count for much....if you are serious about presenting Chomsky as a fraud, by all means, show me the research.


message 36: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 29, 2013 09:07AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Ted wrote: "Well I've often wondered about this sort of thing with Chomsky. But be that as it may, for my money I would pick Chomsky's version (though it may not tell all) of almost anything in the modern worl..."

Yeah, nobody here admits the intense bias of mainstream media at all...of course Chomsky has a bias too, but really, if you have to choose..choose the most rigorous one...

Hear, hear, Ted!


message 37: by Jay (last edited Jun 29, 2013 01:19PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jay The legality or illegality of the Iraq war has no bearing on whether or not violence has declined, so there's no reason for Pinker to discuss it.

I really don't understand how you argue that commerce doesn't encourage peace. Let me ask you this, do you disagree with Pinker that there is less violence in the world? Do you think there's more violence since the accent of market liberalization? People all across the Earth are living longer, getting relatively richer, and are less likely to die at the hands of other humans than ever before. There's trouble spots such as Africa to be sure, but they are the exception, not the rule.




message 38: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted I have believed, perhaps wrongly, for several decades now that U.S. foreign policy has been driven primarily by an attempt to trump "Communism" with "Capitalism". This of course has been soundly supported by U.S. corporations, particularly in places like Latin America where certain companies have always had a huge stake in assuring that "them that owns stuff continue to own the stuff, because that's who we do business with" and since the business benefits so few in the country, it doesn't take much to make the owners happy; most of the excess capital can flow freely back to the corporation as profit.

Hence the talk about Democracy, Freedom etc is little but a smoke screen to hide a rather less "uplifting" agenda.


message 39: by Miquixote (last edited Jun 30, 2013 02:25PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Miquixote Jay wrote: "The legality or illegality of the Iraq war has no bearing on whether or not violence has declined, so there's no reason for Pinker to discuss it.

I really don't understand how you argue that com..."


I have no problem with the idea that violence has dropped in overall quantity. could very well be true. my problem with pinker is his methodology and extreme bias.

sigh...latin america anyone?

there has been no gentle commerce in latin america. thus violence. if there were gentle commerce perhaps there would be peace. us imperialism encourages violence. period.

there is no market liberalization in latin america. that is the biggest lie that economists have ever used. there is monopoly and corruption. that is your market liberalization.

south americans do not live better. the 3rd world exists.

read Open Veins of Latin America.
could be the best history book ever written.
yes, it is written by a leftist.so, it must be completely and hopelessly biased.
sigh, what a circle.
it is virtually imposible not to be a leftist in Latin America considering what so-called market liberalization has caused there.
nothing short of attempte genocide and all over the continent.
seriously, commerce always encourages peace?
are you kidding me?


the history of capitalism is not peaceful. the world wars were caused by unbridled capitalism and capitalist-stimulated imperialism. not Karl marx.

when capitalism moderated itself after the second world war and keynesianism became the go-to economics, the world got better.
when Friedman came to the fore, the world got worse.
neoliberalism has been in the Forefront since the oil crash in the early 70s.
inequality has risen proportionately.
there is a current crisis of unbridled capitalism that is literally destroying the world's economies.
now the top 1% in the us own 36% of the US wealth.
that is a huge problem. it is comparable to Great Depression inequality. whether you are capitalist or socialist. and if you think that these kinds of proportions won't have blowback, that is some deep faith you've got.

if capitalism could work (and that is a bIG IF) it has to be controlled. it has to be gentle. yeah, capitalism can do some good things, but VERY RARELY has it been gentle.

Jay, the only way anybody can claim that commerce unilaterally causes peace is if they are economic determinists. neoliberal economic determinists. If there is no distinction made between gentle commerce (at least Pinker admits commerce must be gentle!) and unfair monopolistic practice, it is a very scary form of totalitarianistic economic determinism. I really hope that you don't claim that commerce has made Latin America (in general)a better place to live. Violence and inequality are astronomical. Most economists gloss over 3rd world development (or lack of) and the causes for their underdevelopment. They usually blame corruption. And they are right. Government oficials in line working side-by-side with US imperalism. Oh, but they got their commerce. Along with miserable poverty-ridden epidemics of violence. The people don't get their share of anything but violence and poverty.

And, yes, The illegality of the Iraq War very much has to do with whether violence will decline.

There is something called blowback.

and the majority of the world is doing better? give me a break. at least 80% of the world is a violence hotspot. The 3rd world still hasn't recovered from the beginnings of capitalism (mercantilist and colonialist capitalism). Things were much, much better (but still far from perfect) before the European new capitalists came and almost succeeded in wiping them off the face of the earth. People had their pride, their culture, their way of life, they had ties to nature. Now what do they have? Something very close to slavery. And they're rightfully angry about that.

It is open to debate that capitalism has made the world a better place. There have been serious consequences to the environment, to our happiness, to our community. Of course we do live longer, especially in the 1st world, we are healthier, we have more stuff, some of it pretty cool, like this computer. But are we happier? Maybe, maybe not. I can promise you most 3rd worlders are not.


Miquixote Ted wrote: "I have believed, perhaps wrongly, for several decades now that U.S. foreign policy has been driven primarily by an attempt to trump "Communism" with "Capitalism". This of course has been soundly s..."

thanks for the input Ted. I agree. so-called market liberalization in practice in Latin America is much closer to fascism than democracy.

the evidence is there for anyone to look at, if they want to be honest.


Mirek Jasinski Ups, I am slogging through this book, trying to understand why Zuckerberg picked it for his yearly book challenge... Partly, I share your thoughts but hope that there is some valuable conclusion, or at least some reason for it...


message 42: by Ben (new) - added it

Ben I'm about a third of the way through this book and find myself disagreeing with this review wholeheartedly. I don't feel the merits of this book are discussed at all - I understand where the criticisms are coming from, but they are aimed at 10% of the text I've read so far at best, where the other 90% is a well reasoned explanation of the progression of history from a lens of violence reduction.

As an example, SP does explains well how the introduction of agriculture led to Chiefdoms and settled tribes developing, introducing our first elements of Leviathan, which triggered the long period of Pacification and reduction in violence. This was followed by a Civilizing process as Chiefdoms turned into organized governments in which commerce because a win-win and people valued each other; moving into modern times, I understand why the OP could take issue with SP's insubstantial explanation for the 1960's crime spike (communism was a "maybe this is why" explanation), but SP doesn't claim to know! He says (paraprharsed) "no one really understands this one, but here is my guess". I feel it is responsibly stated as an educated guess, and felt like it was conjecture rather than fact, which is fine as long as the author portrays it that way.

To the OP I wish you would not write such a flaming review when a large part of the book provides factual value and a coherent timeline, not most of it idealogically based. I will return to update this once I'm done with the book.


message 43: by Michael (new)

Michael I had tried, twice, to get through this book but became so annoyed by the intellectual laziness, that I ended up giving the book away ( something I would not have thought possible). It is not often that I shout at a book like a crazy nerd...but this was too much.


Dominic Miquixote tries with all his might to blame Capitalism for everything bad under the sun. And surely, capitalism and commerce can be immoral and a cause of harm. But not on the scale that he is trying to ascribe to it. His review focuses on the twentieth century, and the biggest catastrophes that befell that period were the twin scourges of Faschism/Nazism and Communism, which caused many tens of millions of deaths. Trying to shift that blame away is simply dishonest. Also, the surge of violence in the 70s that Miquixote mentions in the review is explained not by ideology, i.e. Pinker doesn't blame the left as Miquixote claims, but by societal changes, i.e. counter-culture and repudiation of authority (and maybe also a reaction to the Vietnam war).
It's bogus to state that Pinker "caricatured capitalism as gentle". Pinker does use the term "Gentle Commerce", but this originated in the 17th century and refers to commerce foistering cooperation and thus reducing violence.


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