ŷ������

Why stalled?... I may try this before year end.

Kalliope wrote: "Why stalled?... I may try this before year end."

Because there are two Infinite Jest group reads going on, one with which i'm already behind, so i'd rather do that one first.

Of everything i've been reading now lately, i suppose this one gripped me the least, so it's the easiest one to shelve for a while.

Traveller wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Why stalled?... I may try this before year end."

Because there are two Infinite Jest group reads going on, one with which i'm already behind, so i'd rather do that one first.

O..."

Thank you... I should read Infinite Jest sometime but will have to be after the Proust... I hope another group is set up for this later on.

Sue me.
I'll see you in court!

But to defend your right to say whatever you want.

Thanks, Penk. Certain comments I was getting re some people's right to express their views, angered me into needing to say that I refuse to be intimidated into saying what certain people would like me to say.

What a pity that these issues are coming up around this particular book. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and ironically, it does appear to be one of the themes of this book, which actually makes me want to give the book 5 stars, regardless of the style it is written in.

It is the idea that some people seem to have here on ŷ������, that they have the last say on wat is "allowed" to be said about a book, and that, if we are ŷ������ friends, we have to all agree about how we feel about a particular book.

That's a bit narrow minded, isn't it? The spicy thing is to share different views about what we read and enrich ourselves through the process.
So, you have my beforehand permission to insult me if I ever start acting stuck-up or obtuse! ;P

Thanks for the permission, Dolors ! I absolutely agree-- many poeople here on ŷ������ have helped to change and shape my own views, and that is part of why I love the place so much.

Like I said, I don't have it against the book itself, but I feel I need to make a stand against private and public harrassment that has been going on, and which seems, inexplicably, centered around this specific book. What is it about this book?

Traveller wrote: "Thanks for the permission, Dolors ! I absolutely agree-- many poeople here on ŷ������ have helped to change and shape my own views, and that is part of why I love the place so much.

Like I sa..."

Don't know Trav, I haven't read it (nor seen the movie), but from the reviews I've seen, it seems it's either love or hate. But public and private harassment??? Really??? It can't be...it just can't enter my mind that there are people not ready to accept free opinions from others. Cut and heal dear friend, and forget about these so-called "friends"...

These specific friends are ones whose conversation I had enjoyed in the past, Dolors, but honestly, when a person asks you to withdraw your support from another person's review, that is really pushing it too far, in my opinion.

When people start forming opposing 'factions' on a site like this, and use a book like this for fodder... that just makes the entire expierence unpleasant for everyone, in the end.

when a person asks you to withdraw your support from another person's review, that is really pushing it too far
Too far?? It's completely out of place! It would never cross my mind to try to change another person's opinion about anything, even less to put pressure on it! But come on, what's all this? We are all supposedly grown-up people, not a bunch of school kids with the cool gang where you need to take sides if you don't want to be left out...
Unbelievable. Hope not to bump into any of these people, so far so good with the "friends" I've been making...

Traveller wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Why stalled?... I may try this before year end."

Because there are two Infinite Jest group reads going on, one with which i'm already behind, so i'd rather do that one first.

O..."So you didn't like it Traveller. No problem with that. I have the book and I haven't got around to reading it.

I must say, I have always had a great regard for individuals who are their own person. I know one Australian reviewer who is like that and I actually rather admire that trait.

You are an individual, for better for worse, always remember that and you can say what you like. I do!

Lynne, now I feel bad about my rating. I admit that I felt rather angry when I posted this review. It is unfair to the book. I'll withdraw my rating at least. The rating is for all the grief that has been caused by clashing opinions here on GR, not for the book.

I don't get angry often, but when I do, I tend to do things that I regret later, unfortunately.

For God's sake do not withdraw your rating. You're an individual and you don't like it. You have choice.

We all say things in the heat of the moment and actually they are normally the correct choices Traveller so stick with your views! I support you 100%.

I have one trait I do not like too much, I do have a temper especially if I feel that someone has "wronged me". I blame my Spanish grandmother...

Lynne wrote: "I blame my Spanish grandmother...
.."

LOL, Lynne! In my case it must be that bit of German in the blood and some Scots somewhere in the mix as well. What a combination, eh? Unfortunately it can land one into hot water...

Good on you for expressing your opinion, Traveller.

I don't know how this debate has become one of whether people are entitled to have opinions. GR is in the realm of opinion. People are entitled to have and express whatever opinion they like.

All opinions are allowed. There are no dominant or better or preferable opinions.

Equally, people can have and express opinions on other people's opinions, whether in the threads of reviews or in other reviews. People can also choose to express no opinion, if they want to.

I hope the negative reviews don't deter you from reading the book.

It is actually [partly] a protest against the arbitrary or capricious use of power, not just by governments, but by commercial, media and social groups.

The story about Luisa Rey is particularly worth examining in this context.

While many people question the right of male authors to express a female point of view, Mitchell actually uses women to express one of his most important themes.

At the risk of repeating myself, this is what I said about it in my review:

...

Mitchell’s six stories feature heroes (of sorts), five of whom are or might be reincarnations of the same soul.

Each of them has the courage to fight against evil or power or oppression or cruelty.

They are idealists, liberals, [affirmative] activists, boat rockers, shit-stirrers, young hacks, non-conformists, dissidents, rebels, revolutionaries, rogues, rascals, “picaros�� (the Spanish word from which the word “picaresque�� derives), messiahs and naughty boys.

They eschew duplicity, dishonesty and falseness, they seek authenticity, honesty and truth:

"Truth is the gold."

"Truth is singular. Its ‘versions�� are mistruths."

"The true true is presher’n’rarer’n diamonds."

They oppose power, corruption, and lies, tyranny and mutation.

Women play a significant role as both characters and subject matter in the novel.

To a certain extent, they represent an alternative to the corrupt corporate culture symbolized by Seaboard Power (even though its Head of Publicity is a woman):

"Men invented money. Women invented mutual aid."

There is a sense in which men [males] are driven by the hunger, the acquisitiveness, at the heart of the novel’s concerns, far more so than women:

”Yay, Old Un’s Smart mastered sicks, miles, seeds an�� made miracles ord’nary, but it din’t master one thing, nay, a hunger in the hearts o�� humans, yay, a hunger for more...Oh, more gear, more food, faster speeds, longer lifes, easier lifes, more power, yay.��

...

I'm glad you are fighting for your right to express your opinion.

When each of us fights for the right to our own opinion, we actually fight for the right of others to hold their opinions, whether contrary or not.

If we don't all have a right to our opinions, then group power will continue to be arbitrary and capricious, which is the foundation of bullying and ostracisation, of which there is already too much on the internet.

Ian wrote: "Good on you for expressing your opinion, Traveller.

Your review doesn't show a star rating. Have you removed it? What was it, BTW?

I don't know how this debate has become one of whether people are entitled to have opinions. GR is in the realm of opinion. People are entitled to have and express whatever opinion they like.

All opinions are allowed. There are no dominant or better or preferable opinions.

Equally, people can have and express opinions on other people's opinions, whether in the threads of reviews or in other reviews. People can also choose to express no opinion, if they want to...."

Nicely said! ..and I see that the right to expressing our reactions to reviews falls within the scope of this worthy declaration. I am very glad to see that.

This means, just to make matters clear, that people are allowed to post positive comments on reviews, even if other people don't agree with the review in question-- am I correct on that point? ..and even if all these people are friends--we don't all have to follow the leader and try to please one another, with how we express ourselves regarding books or reviews-- taking in account that we always remain polite, of course; because variety is the spice of life, wouldn't you say?

Traveller wrote: "Nicely said! ..and I see that the right to expressing our reactions to reviews falls within the scope of this worthy declaration. I am very glad to see that.

This means, just to make matters clear, that people are allowed to post positive comments on reviews, even if other people don't agree with the review in question-- am I correct on that point? ..and even if all these people are friends--we don't all have to follow the leader and try to please one another, with how we express ourselves regarding books or reviews-- taking in account that we always remain polite, of course; because variety is the spice of life, wouldn't you say?"

Yes, I totally agree. I assert the right for both you and me, and the right not to be treated like a pariah for doing so. As you know, I object to people privately messaging people who have liked a review trying to influence them to withdraw their like. I also object to people being arbitrarily or capriciously expelled from discussion groups with no accountability. Do you agree that this is a related issue? How social and online groups enforce conformity? Luisa Rey wouldn't put up with it ;)

"Sue me."

A girl named Sue? ;-)

Seriously, though, in this one if you don't like the style it changes in the next section. (Qualification -- I listened to the audiobook and am beginning to think that influenced my response to various books.)

Ian said, "I object to people privately messaging people who have liked a review trying to influence them to withdraw their like."

Unbelievable! (that this happens, I mean.)

Jan, as you know, a negative review can be just as much an art form as a positive review. In fact, neither elevates itself to an art form, unless it goes beyond mere abuse or hagiography.

I had a wonderful rainy weekend once where I sat down and read all of Paul Bryant's five star reviews, followed by his ones. The ones were even more entertaining, even if I disagreed with him (which I do occasionally).

Here's a nicely done negative review of Cloud Atlas from Jenn(ifer):

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Smart, insightful and fun.

I really respect a negative review that gives you enough insight into a book that it makes you feel it might suit you, even though it didn't suit the reviewer. Totally smashing a book you don't like doesn't achieve much, apart from venting your spleen, unless of course it's funny. I don't know why authors don't deserve a little courtesy or generosity.

Traveller wrote: "Thanks, Penk. Certain comments I was getting re some people's right to express their views, angered me into needing to say that I refuse to be intimidated into saying what certain people would li..."

Yeah, this book gets a lot of peoples blood boiling, as does any book/author that gets a big following on here. And then people get all up in arms. Its like this conversation I had with a classmate the other day about how he hates Bolano's writing because hipsters read him, and that sort of thing sort of bothers me since hipsters reading Bolano doesn't change what Bolano wrote.
I don't know, I liked this book, but I get why others wouldn't. But it doesn't do me or them any good insulting them for it, ya know? That's why I really respect your points here; it's your opinion, everyone has personal tastes (hell, I love Dostoevsky and Nabokov, but can respect Nabokov's dislike of Dostoevsky - same goes with Hamsun and Gass). So good for you sticking up for yourself. There's discussing a book people disagree on, and then theres arguing and insulting. The latter accomplishes nothing. I don't know, I'm just glad you made a statement about people being allowed to have opinions without having to have snarkyness rain down on them.
I'll shut up now. this has been a long convoluted high five haha

Ian wrote: "Totally smashing a book you don't like doesn't achieve much, apart from venting your spleen, unless of course it's funny. I don't know why authors don't deserve a little courtesy or generosity. .."

Gass wrote something about how he doesn't like to write about living authors for that reason (he's okay with bashing Hamsun cuz he's dead and can't be hurt by Gass' words) And I think that is a really cool thing for Gass to say, totally acknowledging that authors are just people like everyone else with feelings, hopes, desires, and whatnot.

s.penkevich wrote: "I don't know, I liked this book, but I get why others wouldn't. But it doesn't do me or them any good insulting them for it, ya know?"

I was going to ask you what you thought about insulting authors, but you might have answered it in your second post.

If you want to criticise a book or an author, I think it's desirable to see some reasoning beyond just the conclusion that they're crap.

Just to clarify...When I said, "Unbelievable!", I meant unbelievable that people would try to get others to remove a "like," not that there would be negative opinions. What makes a review likeable--what makes a for a good review--is not whether it's negative or positive.

Jan wrote: "Just to clarify...When I said, "Unbelievable!", I meant unbelievable that people would try to get others to remove a "like," not that there would be negative opinions. What makes a review likeable--what makes a for a good review--is not whether it's negative or positive."

I understood your comment that way, and also agree with your second point.

I think something amazon has to appreciate about GR is that reviews are not just a commercial vehicle for promoting sales of books. They're an art form in their own right, and they can be as diverse in form and content as any other art form.

I'm not ready for Amazon to wreak havoc; I practically just got here! :-)

Ian wrote: "If you want to criticise a book or an author, I think it's desirable to see some reasoning beyond just the conclusion that they're crap. ..."

I totally agree. I mean, yeah, some of them are funny to read, but it isn't really helpful if you know what I mean. But, then again, exercises in writing are key, and I can appreciate that. Ugh, I'm too much of a 'pleaser' type person sometimes haha, I can't ever stiff-arm an opinion. I have a really hard time writing negative reviews (I haven't had much of an opportunity since I am really careful to avoid any books I think I might not like) because I always second guess myself and try to think why someone might have enjoyed it. They do this running joke on Saturday Night Live where they do ads for fake terrible plays/movies/etc. and make up quotes from this one guy from Rolling Stone like 'it was good, but I pretty much like everything'. Sometimes I feel that is me haha. My Life of Pi was pretty much a bunch of half-negative statements with a ton of back-peddling.
But yeah, I don't really like putting out insults, but then again I'm always fearful of offending people and try to be as amicable as I can. I mean, I haven't written a novel or am in no way an authority, so who am I to say something sucks haha. Now I want to read something I know I won't like just to see how I handle writing a negative review.

Interestingly enough, the Walser book I'm about to go review makes a few statements that could be attributed to this discussion. He talks about critics being injurious to people and pleads for people to be positive and loving to each other. He sees a paining he thinks is crap but says he can't hate it simply because someone put their heart into it and then says 'is not all music, ever the most niggardly, beautiful to the person who loves the very being and existence of music? Is not almost any human being you please - even the worst and most unpleasant - loveable to the person who is a friend of man?' I liked that. But that is not to say that I think negative reviews are wrong, and I appreciate people who speak their mind even if it is an unpopular opinion. Shit, I should have been a hippy.

s.penkevich wrote: "Shit, I should have been a hippy. "

Haha, I wouldn't go that far. Maybe a beat?

I'd liked to have shared a bottle with Kerouac.

s.penkevich wrote: "I'd liked to have shared a bottle with Kerouac."

Ha! Kerouac and Ginsberg and Spen...might have been the perfect trio!
I've just read your comments above and I agree with them all, what most surprises me is that there might be people who don't!
In any case, I'll be looking forward to that negative review Spen, really easy to draw on inspiration, just take any Fifty Shades and you'll have plenty to "constructively" criticize! ;P

Ian wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Nicely said! ..and I see that the right to expressing our reactions to reviews falls within the scope of this worthy declaration. I am very glad to see that.

This means, just to..."

When I saw that you wrote: "As you know, I object to people privately messaging people who have liked a review trying to influence them to withdraw their like," I was taken aback.

Do people actually do that Ian? That's dreadful and horrifies me.

Jan wrote: "Ian said, "I object to people privately messaging people who have liked a review trying to influence them to withdraw their like."

Unbelievable! (that this happens, I mean.)"

Jan, I've just seen your comment and I commented exactly the same as you.

s.penkevich wrote: "I'd liked to have shared a bottle with Kerouac."

Penky (preferred!) I hate to admit my ignorance but I only heard about Kerouac through a GR friend the other day. I obviously live on another planet - can you possibly recommend the best book. I briefly looked on Wikipedia and I never know if the information is correct or not.

Lynne wrote: ".Jan, I've just seen your comment and I commented exactly the same as you.."

Lynn, I don't want to go any further into the background of that comment than this. Many of the people who have followed the Cloud Atlas disputes are aware that I reacted disproportionately to some personal messages, and I wrote a poem that on reflection I shouldn't have. I object to any attempt to restrict the free expression of opinion. The proper response to an opinion or a book that we mightn't like is the expression of another opinion, not the removal of the first opinion. There is no obligation or expectation that we all agree on matters of taste. Personally, I feel that authors deserve some respect as well, but accept that others don't agree and regard them as open slather because they are public figures. The law is in a state of flux, but there are a few restaurant critics around who probably wish their reviews had been a bit more respectful.

OK end of subject Ian but still an excellent comment.

This is the sort of thing book reviewers can and do get sued for:



I should clarify that freedom of opinion is qualified by laws like defamation, blasphemy and sedition. It's not absolutely free.

Jan wrote: "Just to clarify...When I said, "Unbelievable!", I meant unbelievable that people would try to get others to remove a "like," not that there would be negative opinions. What makes a review likeable..."

Well, I had been privately berated for 'liking' a negative review of a book in the past, and now, more recently, was privately berated for posting appreciative comments on two people's reviews.

Interestingly, one was a one star review, and the other a five star...

Usually it is authors who engage in this kind of thing (NOT David Mitchell, though!!!).

In my own case, it was from among our friends here on ŷ������. (Actually, more than one person have engaged in this behaviour--unbelieveable but true--I even still have the messages. )

In other cases which I have not personally had to deal with (thank goodness), often these would be indie authors who cannot handle negative reviews, and in some cases, negative reviewers have even been threatened with physical violence. Very scary, bc in some cases, the author made sure the reviewer knew that the author was aware of the reviewer's physical address! That is how bad the issue had become.

s.penkevich wrote: "Ian wrote: "If you want to criticise a book or an author, I think it's desirable to see some reasoning beyond just the conclusion that they're crap. ..."

I totally agree. I mean, yeah, some of the..."

Have you read this, Penk? Fifty Shades of Grey
Now, there is one that might give you a good start on the road towards being able to write negative reviews. ;)

Ian wrote: "This is the sort of thing book reviewers can and do get sued for:



I should clarify that free..."

I'm pleased to have seen that review Ian, thanks.

Now, as an amusing aside, my children's book, under an earlier title and name and an English publishing house, received the most diabolical review in "The Guardian", one of our main UK papers in February 2013. I didn't object to the negative review but I did object to the fact that not one character was mentioned either by name or by human or animal. If I had been famous, I would have been absolutely incensed!

Ian wrote: "This is the sort of thing book reviewers can and do get sued for:



I should clarify that free..."

Still, those are for factual errors, and of course ad hominems are unacceptable.

..but saying that you found the style of a book too artificial, is NOT punishable by law. Why bother having reviews if they all have to be glowing? They would not tell potential readers anything truthful about our potential experience with the book, would they?

Ian wrote:
Here's a nicely done negative review of Cloud Atlas from Jenn(ifer):

Thanks, Ian. I appreciate that!

Give 'em Hell, Traveller!

:)


It is always possible to read this book much...much later.

The dust will have settled. The book will stand or fall or simply sit in your lap on its own merits.

There are plenty of other books.

LOL, Mosca, your comment made me chuckle ... I feel rather embarassed by now. I suppose one's "angry" self always looks a bit silly in retropsect, when you have calmed down.

I think a good lesson for me would be to not get all hot under the collar when someone tries to intimidate or force me into something... I should instead learn to just keep calm and move on, eh?

I've always felt that anger is a very important and valuable emotion. It produces an amazing amount of creative energy.

The important question (for me) is: "Is this anger using me; or am I using this anger?" or even:

"Is it possible to live in harmony alongside my anger?"

Many interesting answers can pop up.

Heat usually indicates useful fuel somewhere.

Thanks for your kind words, Bennet and Mosca! You are right... emotions fuel motivation, and anger is not always negative, or, it need not be.

I wholeheartedly agree about being free to disagree - and that it can and should be done in a polite and friendly way.

Regarding the book itself, don't let your dislike of the first section put you off. It's not just that the six different stories are set in different times and places, they are also written in very different styles (something that is not as obvious if you've only seen the film), so if you do return to it, you may be pleasantly surprised by what follows.

I most definitely will, Cecily! I am quite curious about it now, after all the drama that seems to follow the book.