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Jonathan O'Neill's Reviews > The Iliad
The Iliad
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”The true hero, the true subject, the center of the Iliad, is force. Force as man’s instrument, force as man’s master, force before which human flesh shrinks back. The human soul, in this poem, is shown always in its relation to force.� - Simone Weil (L’Iliade ou le poème de la Force)
***SPOILERS AHEAD (If it's possible to spoil arguably the best-known story in history, 3000 years after its creation... You can never be too careful)***
Hear me fellow bookworms, children of Zeus whose shield is thunder, lords of the war cry, noble charioteers, those who are a match for Ares! Readers of words, flippers of pages, inserters of� of bookmarks! For I, breaker of chains, Father of Dragons, straddler of donkeys, purveyor of nonsense; have a few words of laughably little importance to say about this cornerstone of Greek Mythology.
The Iliad was most likely composed somewhere between the late 8th and early 7th centuries BC (725-675 � They lose track of evidence around 700BC). The first known printed version dates back to 1488 meaning it was likely passed on orally and then copied by hand for about 2200 years! Bernard Knox, the man responsible for the introduction in Robert Fagle’s translation, covers some interesting historical questions about the text. Offering several different standpoints, in a respectably objective manner, Knox discusses opposing views on the original nature of the poem: Was it written or oral? Was Homer illiterate? Was it an individual effort at all or, in fact, the sewing together of many smaller works from different authors into one cohesive whole? Much of the Chinese philosophical texts were believed to have gone through a similar process of compiling and editing over time with the existence of the great Lao Tzu often met with scepticism and the Analects of Confucius of course not being the writings of the man himself but of his pupils. Knox himself draws parallels to other patchwork epics like the Finnish Kalevala and the French medieval epic, La Chanson de Roland.
Readers who are particularly new to classic epic poetry may note (Read: do note; established by reading a number of GR reviews) the long, epic titles at every introduction of an important character (�ornamental epithets�), as in my first paragraph. These are hallmarks of oral epic poetry. The heavy repetition of such epithets, along with repeated analogies (looking at you Lion/Wolf/Defenceless Goatherd) cannot be justly criticised as it was a deliberate mechanism allowing the poet to improvise, with choice of epithet dictated by the meter. Recurring passages gave poets time to focus on the upcoming scene. I’m unsure whether the quirky 2-line obituaries following even the most irrelevant character’s deaths can be included here as they tended to be specific to each character. It’s almost as though it was an attempt to get you to care about a character despite their death being the first time you’d ever heard of them. I’d put this down more to the importance placed on lineage than any poetic strategy. In any case, if you compare ‘The Iliad� to something like ‘The Epic of Gilgamesh�, the verbatim repetition is actually not remotely as severe and has a much wider variation.
War, war and more war is what you can expect to find in the pages of the Iliad. At surface level you could be forgiven for thinking it might’ve been written by two brothers, in their early adolescence, trying to outdo each other with the addition of blood, gore and masculine bravado. Characters exchange blustering taunts, the likes of which you’d find on a football field; 70% of the book is just brothers-in-arms haranguing one another for their perceived cowardice; there are spears penetrating skulls, cut off tongues, disembowelment, it’s all very OTT and not in the least bit pretty, but then again, neither’s war!
There are a number of bizarre occurrences and non-sensical events. At one stage, Aeneas and Achilles stop, in the middle of a battlefield, for a prolonged d and m, and a leisurely exchange of life stories. In at least two cases, that of Diomedes/Glaucus and Hector/Ajax, two enemy fighters are set to engage in battle but instead end up discussing each other’s lineages, exchanging gifts and agreeing to a pact of friendship! I was left thinking, “I don’t wanna spoil this lovely moment guys, but your respective comrades are literally tearing each other to pieces all around you!!�
Equally, the idea that Menelaus and Paris could’ve settled the dispute between themselves is absurd. The Achaeans and their allies travelled 10 years to get to Troy! Regardless of the result of one-on-one combat, they’re not exactly just going to turn around and go home are they! It’s kind of a “Well, we’re here now so may as well sack the city!� type scenario.
Peculiarities aside, The Iliad hits a sound note with its contrast between reality (the ugly brutality of war) and delusion (the glorification of war) . Courage and Bravery are most coveted traits by Achaeans and Trojans alike (how easily stupidity and recklessness can be misinterpreted) and its through brave acts and courageous deeds that heroes are born, a God’s favour is found, and names are written into the history books. This foolish glorification of War, however, is at odds with the ugly narrative of the Trojan War in which men can often seem inherently cowardly and Gods pull all the strings. We’re led to question whether supposed “heroes� are ever acting of their own free will or if their courage and power (force) is all just a matter of divine intervention; Zeus and his dysfunctional family playing just another trivial game of ‘Risk � Trojan War Edition�. Homer’s opinion seems clear, we’re all most certainly subject to the whims of the Gods/the Forces at play. Any individual excellence is stripped from men as the God’s bless who they will with skill and strength, those they have fathered/mothered, those that offer the largest and most prolific sacrifices in their names, those they pity; while condemning those that have slighted them, however mildly, or perhaps those who remind them of their own partner’s infidelity (*cough* Hera).
In the end, I think Hector is the greatest example of the role the Gods play in Homer’s Iliad. The “bravest� of the Trojans by far throughout the poem, the breaker of horses, dripping head to toe in glory, an unstoppable force with Gods always at his side, whispering words of encouragement; but in the end, when all the Gods, even Zeus, are nowhere to be found and he must stand to face the mighty Achilles man-to-man, mano-a-mano, he loses his nerve (the nerve clearly instilled by the Gods) and runs for his life, 3 times around Priam’s walls!
”My son stood and fought for the men of troy and their deep-breasted wives with never a thought of flight or run for cover.� - Hecuba
�.Um? Yeah, ok�
One last point I’d like to touch on is the Friends/Lovers “controversy� regarding Achilles and Patroclus. I don’t feel particularly strongly about it either way but having now completed it and read reviews of both ‘The Iliad� and ‘The Song of Achilles� I’m a bit taken back by some of the aggressive reactions towards any adaptation of the Iliad, screen or print, that portray them as heterosexual. I’m left scratching my head and wondering, seeing as the heavily opinionated reviews are for ‘The Song of Achilles�, how many of these people have actually read ‘The Iliad� and how many just enjoy getting on board the outrage train! I just really dislike this modern pandemic that is false public displays of self-righteousness by uninformed people! The irony of that is that I may be historically uninformed myself however, to me, there is nothing in this text that suggests, unequivocally, that they are in a romantic relationship. It is most definitely open to that interpretation, and I welcome it (I look forward to reading TSOA myself), but could we perhaps not unjustly (in my opinion) villainise those who don’t interpret it the same way?
In closing, I very much enjoyed my reading of this seminal classic; it took me a while to get through but that’s nothing to do with the quality of the text (even if it was, who am I to say?), but more to do with a little baby girl suddenly appearing in my house! Hoping to get through, at the very least, ‘The Odyssey�, ‘The Homeric Hymns� and ‘Hesiod’s Theogony� in 2022 and then I’ll take it from there. Happy reading!
”Like the generations of leaves, the lives of mortal men.
Now the wind scatters the old leaves across the earth,
Now the living timber bursts with the new buds
And spring comes round again. And so with men:
As one generation comes to life, another dies away.�
***SPOILERS AHEAD (If it's possible to spoil arguably the best-known story in history, 3000 years after its creation... You can never be too careful)***
Hear me fellow bookworms, children of Zeus whose shield is thunder, lords of the war cry, noble charioteers, those who are a match for Ares! Readers of words, flippers of pages, inserters of� of bookmarks! For I, breaker of chains, Father of Dragons, straddler of donkeys, purveyor of nonsense; have a few words of laughably little importance to say about this cornerstone of Greek Mythology.
The Iliad was most likely composed somewhere between the late 8th and early 7th centuries BC (725-675 � They lose track of evidence around 700BC). The first known printed version dates back to 1488 meaning it was likely passed on orally and then copied by hand for about 2200 years! Bernard Knox, the man responsible for the introduction in Robert Fagle’s translation, covers some interesting historical questions about the text. Offering several different standpoints, in a respectably objective manner, Knox discusses opposing views on the original nature of the poem: Was it written or oral? Was Homer illiterate? Was it an individual effort at all or, in fact, the sewing together of many smaller works from different authors into one cohesive whole? Much of the Chinese philosophical texts were believed to have gone through a similar process of compiling and editing over time with the existence of the great Lao Tzu often met with scepticism and the Analects of Confucius of course not being the writings of the man himself but of his pupils. Knox himself draws parallels to other patchwork epics like the Finnish Kalevala and the French medieval epic, La Chanson de Roland.
Readers who are particularly new to classic epic poetry may note (Read: do note; established by reading a number of GR reviews) the long, epic titles at every introduction of an important character (�ornamental epithets�), as in my first paragraph. These are hallmarks of oral epic poetry. The heavy repetition of such epithets, along with repeated analogies (looking at you Lion/Wolf/Defenceless Goatherd) cannot be justly criticised as it was a deliberate mechanism allowing the poet to improvise, with choice of epithet dictated by the meter. Recurring passages gave poets time to focus on the upcoming scene. I’m unsure whether the quirky 2-line obituaries following even the most irrelevant character’s deaths can be included here as they tended to be specific to each character. It’s almost as though it was an attempt to get you to care about a character despite their death being the first time you’d ever heard of them. I’d put this down more to the importance placed on lineage than any poetic strategy. In any case, if you compare ‘The Iliad� to something like ‘The Epic of Gilgamesh�, the verbatim repetition is actually not remotely as severe and has a much wider variation.
War, war and more war is what you can expect to find in the pages of the Iliad. At surface level you could be forgiven for thinking it might’ve been written by two brothers, in their early adolescence, trying to outdo each other with the addition of blood, gore and masculine bravado. Characters exchange blustering taunts, the likes of which you’d find on a football field; 70% of the book is just brothers-in-arms haranguing one another for their perceived cowardice; there are spears penetrating skulls, cut off tongues, disembowelment, it’s all very OTT and not in the least bit pretty, but then again, neither’s war!
There are a number of bizarre occurrences and non-sensical events. At one stage, Aeneas and Achilles stop, in the middle of a battlefield, for a prolonged d and m, and a leisurely exchange of life stories. In at least two cases, that of Diomedes/Glaucus and Hector/Ajax, two enemy fighters are set to engage in battle but instead end up discussing each other’s lineages, exchanging gifts and agreeing to a pact of friendship! I was left thinking, “I don’t wanna spoil this lovely moment guys, but your respective comrades are literally tearing each other to pieces all around you!!�
Equally, the idea that Menelaus and Paris could’ve settled the dispute between themselves is absurd. The Achaeans and their allies travelled 10 years to get to Troy! Regardless of the result of one-on-one combat, they’re not exactly just going to turn around and go home are they! It’s kind of a “Well, we’re here now so may as well sack the city!� type scenario.
Peculiarities aside, The Iliad hits a sound note with its contrast between reality (the ugly brutality of war) and delusion (the glorification of war) . Courage and Bravery are most coveted traits by Achaeans and Trojans alike (how easily stupidity and recklessness can be misinterpreted) and its through brave acts and courageous deeds that heroes are born, a God’s favour is found, and names are written into the history books. This foolish glorification of War, however, is at odds with the ugly narrative of the Trojan War in which men can often seem inherently cowardly and Gods pull all the strings. We’re led to question whether supposed “heroes� are ever acting of their own free will or if their courage and power (force) is all just a matter of divine intervention; Zeus and his dysfunctional family playing just another trivial game of ‘Risk � Trojan War Edition�. Homer’s opinion seems clear, we’re all most certainly subject to the whims of the Gods/the Forces at play. Any individual excellence is stripped from men as the God’s bless who they will with skill and strength, those they have fathered/mothered, those that offer the largest and most prolific sacrifices in their names, those they pity; while condemning those that have slighted them, however mildly, or perhaps those who remind them of their own partner’s infidelity (*cough* Hera).
In the end, I think Hector is the greatest example of the role the Gods play in Homer’s Iliad. The “bravest� of the Trojans by far throughout the poem, the breaker of horses, dripping head to toe in glory, an unstoppable force with Gods always at his side, whispering words of encouragement; but in the end, when all the Gods, even Zeus, are nowhere to be found and he must stand to face the mighty Achilles man-to-man, mano-a-mano, he loses his nerve (the nerve clearly instilled by the Gods) and runs for his life, 3 times around Priam’s walls!
”My son stood and fought for the men of troy and their deep-breasted wives with never a thought of flight or run for cover.� - Hecuba
�.Um? Yeah, ok�
One last point I’d like to touch on is the Friends/Lovers “controversy� regarding Achilles and Patroclus. I don’t feel particularly strongly about it either way but having now completed it and read reviews of both ‘The Iliad� and ‘The Song of Achilles� I’m a bit taken back by some of the aggressive reactions towards any adaptation of the Iliad, screen or print, that portray them as heterosexual. I’m left scratching my head and wondering, seeing as the heavily opinionated reviews are for ‘The Song of Achilles�, how many of these people have actually read ‘The Iliad� and how many just enjoy getting on board the outrage train! I just really dislike this modern pandemic that is false public displays of self-righteousness by uninformed people! The irony of that is that I may be historically uninformed myself however, to me, there is nothing in this text that suggests, unequivocally, that they are in a romantic relationship. It is most definitely open to that interpretation, and I welcome it (I look forward to reading TSOA myself), but could we perhaps not unjustly (in my opinion) villainise those who don’t interpret it the same way?
In closing, I very much enjoyed my reading of this seminal classic; it took me a while to get through but that’s nothing to do with the quality of the text (even if it was, who am I to say?), but more to do with a little baby girl suddenly appearing in my house! Hoping to get through, at the very least, ‘The Odyssey�, ‘The Homeric Hymns� and ‘Hesiod’s Theogony� in 2022 and then I’ll take it from there. Happy reading!
”Like the generations of leaves, the lives of mortal men.
Now the wind scatters the old leaves across the earth,
Now the living timber bursts with the new buds
And spring comes round again. And so with men:
As one generation comes to life, another dies away.�
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Reading Progress
February 1, 2020
– Shelved
February 1, 2020
– Shelved as:
to-read
October 7, 2021
–
Started Reading
October 13, 2021
–
12.54%
"An indispensable introduction by Bernard Knox, friend and collaborator of Robert Fagles. Comprehensive, insightful and illuminating.
Would've expected my honorary degree in Greek classics to arrive by now, but I guess some delays should be expected due to covid."
page
77
Would've expected my honorary degree in Greek classics to arrive by now, but I guess some delays should be expected due to covid."
October 14, 2021
–
16.12%
"Achilles is over here in tears, poor little fella, after Agamemnon stole his slave girl. His tears are shed for her, no doubt; he had intended to take her against her will in a much gentler fashion.
"Your told on!" he exclaimed, running to his mother to dob on Aggie.
Oh, the injustice of it all! Won't someone please think of Achilles! 😩"
page
99
"Your told on!" he exclaimed, running to his mother to dob on Aggie.
Oh, the injustice of it all! Won't someone please think of Achilles! 😩"
October 16, 2021
–
26.71%
""Zeus—god of greatness, god of glory, all you immortals! Whichever contenders trample on this treaty first, spill their brains on the ground as this wine spills—theirs, their children's too—their enemies rape their wives!"
Whoa... whoa! Take a chill-pill man! There's always that one dude who gets caught up in the moment and takes it too far!"
page
164
Whoa... whoa! Take a chill-pill man! There's always that one dude who gets caught up in the moment and takes it too far!"
October 29, 2021
– Shelved as:
mythology-folk
November 27, 2021
–
52.12%
"So far, this has been:
75% dudes haranguing one another for their cowardice in an attempt to rouse them to acts of stupidity.
25% Hector's helmet flashing like a disco ball.
So... Obviously I love it!"
page
320
75% dudes haranguing one another for their cowardice in an attempt to rouse them to acts of stupidity.
25% Hector's helmet flashing like a disco ball.
So... Obviously I love it!"
December 11, 2021
–
67.1%
""He clutched a thrusting-lance eleven forearms long."
Americans: "Understood entirely! Just a few fingers short of 12 feet, gotcha!"
Everyone else: 🙃"
page
412
Americans: "Understood entirely! Just a few fingers short of 12 feet, gotcha!"
Everyone else: 🙃"
December 15, 2021
–
81.92%
""... and looming up behind him now—slammed his broad shoulders and back with a god's flat hand..."
Ah yes, we've all got that overenthusiastic Uncle who, at each year's Christmas party, greets you with a slap on the back equal-to-or-greater in force than the hand Apollo lays upon Patroclus."
page
503
Ah yes, we've all got that overenthusiastic Uncle who, at each year's Christmas party, greets you with a slap on the back equal-to-or-greater in force than the hand Apollo lays upon Patroclus."
December 17, 2021
–
91.04%
"Hector running for his life, 3 times, around the city of Priam, with Achilles at his heel (😏), is a comical display of cowardice.... But also of immaculate cardiovascular conditioning!"
page
559
December 18, 2021
–
Finished Reading
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Rebecca
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Oct 09, 2021 03:56PM
I just bought myself copies of these based off of your recommendation! 💖
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Awesome! I hope you'll enjoy them! Did you buy all 3 Fagles translations?! This is my first time reading Homer's work but I was recommending them as basically "essential" works of Greek Mythology. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, along with Hesiod's Theogeny are where it all begins! :)
Jonathan wrote: "Awesome! I hope you'll enjoy them! Did you buy all 3 Fagles translations?! This is my first time reading Homer's work but I was recommending them as basically "essential" works of Greek Mythology. ..."Thank you! I only got the two. Iliad and Odyssey. I had intended to buy them at some stage. But was unsure of which editions to get.
Good choice! The two are a big enough commitment as it is! 😄
Very much looking forward to your review! 👌🏻💖
Thanks, Rebecca! It's on its way but not right away. Hoping to finish another book before the end of the challenge 😄 Reading times been hard to find over the last couple months!
I loved this book! I remember studying it my freshman year of college and being so excited to go to class.
Rachel wrote: "I loved this book! I remember studying it my freshman year of college and being so excited to go to class."It would definitely be nice to study this in a classroom setting! Alas, I never had the chance. I quite liked it; I feel like I will likely enjoy 'The Odyssey' even more. There is much more diversity in the events of that poem than the Iliad. I'll be reading that a bit later this year! :)
I need to pick this book back up! I’ve only read the first chapter.
You're not alone there, tea! I put this down for a couple of weeks to finish other books and play piano more and struggled a little bit to go back to it. Glad I did though! One more behemoth conquered! 😄
Your review is flawless as always. I can’t wait to read my copy and I look forward to hearing your thoughts if/when you read TSOA! Happy New Year John 💖
Rebecca wrote: "Your review is flawless as always. I can’t wait to read my copy and I look forward to hearing your thoughts if/when you read TSOA! Happy New Year John 💖"Please, Rebecca! I need to go make myself another coffee and this undeserved praise is going to make my head too big to get through the door; I've already started puffing out my chest! 😂
Likewise, I can't wait to see what you think of this classic! Fingers crossed you'll like it; there's.... a lot of fighting! In fact, almost only fighting! 😅 Happy New Year to you too! Hope you've been able to enjoy some holidays. I'm back to work tomorrow! 😢
Jonathan wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Your review is flawless as always. I can’t wait to read my copy and I look forward to hearing your thoughts if/when you read TSOA! Happy New Year John 💖"Please, Rebecca! I need to..."
Hahaha. Well deserved! Fantastic review, makes me want to read it straight away. However I too am on holidays and have not been doing hardly any reading at all. I’m back at work on the 10th. I hope you had a lovely Christmas and a nice break as well 💖💖
This was a hilarious review and I agree with you re the hetero homo argument 100%. Also, I cannot believe you're out here reading the Iliad with a new baby girl!! Such an overachiever 😄 ! Does reading your review count as reading the Iliad though?? Asking for ME
Bianca's Book Vibes wrote: "This was a hilarious review and I agree with you re the hetero homo argument 100%. Also, I cannot believe you're out here reading the Iliad with a new baby girl!! Such an overachiever 😄 ! Does read..."Thanks, B! Yeah, it took me a while to get through this one! The bub was definitely part of it but I also decided to start teaching myself piano towards the end of the year 🙈 so I'm sort of trying to fit that in too!
I think you can definitely tick this off the list now; my review was long enough! 😆
"Asking for ME" - lol!
You definitely deserve an award for reading this book. wow!!!!
Sade wrote: "You definitely deserve an award for reading this book. wow!!!!"😂 Not a fan, Sade, or just find it daunting? If it's the latter, it's really not all that. Very accessible to the casual reader; particularly one like yourself, well-versed in massive Fantasy tomes! Happy New Year btw! :)
Congrats with the appearance of the new baby girl in the house, Jonathan :)! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your witty and enthusiast review of this epic, which I was, because of the graphic violence, surprised enjoying tremendously reading it a few years ago - after a while the battle scenes started visualising in my mind like pas de deux in ballet :). I look forward to hear how you get along with the The Odyssey this year.
Ilse wrote: "Congrats with the appearance of the new baby girl in the house, Jonathan :)! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your witty and enthusiast review of this epic, which I was, because of the graphic violence..."Thanks so much, Ilse! She really is just a little bundle of joy! Entirely detrimental to my reading goals, make no mistake, but immeasurably beneficial to my day-to-day happiness! 😂
Thank you also for your kind comments re: the review!
Now I'll never be able to unsee The Iliad as just a battle field of armour clad warriors performing graceful, yet gruesome, pas de deux! 😄
Jonathan wrote: "Sade wrote: "You definitely deserve an award for reading this book. wow!!!!"😂 Not a fan, Sade, or just find it daunting? If it's the latter, it's really not all that. Very accessible to the casua..."
the latter....
lol i want to believe you on how accessible the reading is, but nah
