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Chrissie's Reviews > Pope Joan

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross
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did not like it
bookshelves: hf, kirkus, bio, italy, disliked, france, religion

NO SPOILERS!!!

In conclusion, having completed this novel, having struggled through to the end, I can say I did not like it. I didn't like it from the start to the end. When I voice this opinion, I am obviously in the minority. I do appreciate that the author concluded with an informative author's note, which supports her belief that Pope Joan did exist, between the acknowledged Pope Leo IV and Pope Benedict III. I found her arguments undeniably convincing. I do not know whether Pope Joan existed or not, but I find the author's points valid. Before I can say Pope Joan didn't exist, I would need to have several questions answered.

However whether Pope Joan existed or not is irrelevant to how I judge this book. I did not like how the story was told. The characters were two-dimensional. There were the good guys and the bad guys. I vehemently disliked the cinematic tone characteristic of the entire novel. It was ridiculously romantic and melodramatic. Rarely do I so dislike a book. I have said enough. Below you will see what has annoyed me as I read through the book. I do not need to reapeat these criticisms. It is not the description of the era and the historical events that I am complaiming about. I am complaining about how the story was told. I would not choose to read another book by this author, but she doesn't need me since many others adore her writing.

***

Through page 204: I have read further. One aspect of the book that I think the author handles well is the description of the era - the religious beliefs, historical events, soothsayers, celebration of feast and market gatherings. What I am enjoying is the author's descriptive abilities, her description of the time and place. The struggles between the Saxons, Franks and Norsemen and between pagan and early Christian beliefs are included in the story. This I appreciate, but even here the depiction is rather cinematic. The reader cannot help but grasp the trends of the era.

Through page 148: Maybe my mood is off, but I find Pope Joan disappointing. I find the characters simplistic and feminism emphasized to an extreme. It also feels like a romance novel. And Luke, he is a wolf for heaven's sake. A wolf cub will not behave as he is portrayed in this novel. It is too cute. John(Joan's brother) is too stupid and jealous and bad, while Joan is so smart and forgiving and brave. You can stack the characters in two groups - the good guys or the bad guys.

Here is an excerpt about the white wolf cub, Luke. You judge. Isn't this meant for the movies?

She looked at Luke. "Will it work, Luke? Will it be enough to save me?"

He titlted his head inquisitively, as if trying to understand. It was a mannerism that always amused Gerold. Joan hugged the white wolf, burying her face in the thick fur ringing his neck.
(page 142)

A movie has been made. Perfect!

Maybe it will improve. I do not give up easily. Oh, I have had bad luck lately. This will be my third "not so hot" book in a row.

***

Through page 98: I know this is a minor quibble but it is irritating. How can one put a cover on a book that completely missrepresents the person's appearance? In the book Joan has practically white-blonde hair, deep set eyes of a grry-green color and a thick fringe of eyelashes. Look at the cover on my book! How can you put this cover on this book?

It is a fun read, but I feel the primary message is feministic. On every page you are confronted with how horribly and unjustly women are treated. I know this is an accurate description of the times, but the message doesn't have to be pounded into our skulls.

So far the characters are rather simplistic. Joan is so curious and intelligent. John, her older brother is so unscholarly. Joan's father is such a missguided religious fanatic and her Mom, such a "Mom", loving her child deeply but also rather selfishly. I planned to just read this for fun. Stop being so critical, Chrissie!

Maybe I shoule read Mistress of the Vatican: The True Story of Olimpia Maidalchini: The Secret Female Pope next.

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Reading Progress

December 12, 2009 – Shelved
December 12, 2009 – Shelved as: hf
December 12, 2009 – Shelved as: kirkus
December 12, 2009 – Shelved as: bio
December 12, 2009 – Shelved as: italy
July 6, 2011 – Started Reading
July 10, 2011 – Shelved as: disliked
July 10, 2011 – Shelved as: france
July 10, 2011 – Shelved as: religion
July 10, 2011 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-50 of 113 (113 new)


Tara Chevrestt My review for that had disappeared.. I just re posted it. I read this over a year ago. I do know of another one, but I have not yet read it : The Woman Pope. As this one was dull in some parts, I have often thought of picking it up.


Chrissie Thanks Tara. I will look at your suggestion. Both seem to be historical fiction.


Shomeret While looking for The Woman Pope on my library website, I found a book about a woman who was said to be Pope behind the scenes. It'sMistress of the Vatican The True Story of Olimpia Maidalchini The Secret Female Pope. This is non-fiction. According to a review I read, there's lots of material about the period. I haven't read it, so I don't know for sure whether it's any good.


Tara Chevrestt I don't like biography type books or I would pick it up. It is worth looking into tho.


Chrissie Thanks Shomeret - I definitely am intrigued by that book! It could be fun to read Pope Joan and this one together. Tara, I have read that this author is very readable. She also wrote Sex with the Queen 900 Years of Vile Kings, Virile Lovers, and Passionate Politics which was a book read at the European Royalty Group. I have not read any of her writing. Check out Kirkus' review at B&N - their views are not influenced by the desire to sell books.


Misfit I wasn't terribly overwhelmed by this one. Everyone else seems to love it.


Chrissie Misfitl, I am certainly not overwhelmed either. I doing my best to find things to appreciate. Sometimes yoiu can get stuck in a given opinion. I do believe she describes the era clearly and DRAMATICALLY! I guess it is simply the author's style isn't subtle enough for me.


Manybooks I just realised that I gave this book four stars when I added it a long time ago (when I first joined GR) and no, I did not find this a four start book, I actually never finished the book, it was just way too frustrating (and I am not in the mood to try to reread it in order to review it).


message 9: by Chrissie (last edited Jul 10, 2011 05:40AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Chrissie Gundula, heavens, don't reread it! But really I should advise no one. So many do like it. I don't like cinematic books. So I say to my husband, "Should I put it on my fluff shelf?" Then I thought : "No, it is worse. Melodramatic crap!" I am not being very nice. I can only voice these opinions b/c I KNOW it doesn't matter what I think. Most people seem to like this book! Cross does not need my vote of confidence.


Manybooks Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, heavens, don't reread it! But really I should advise no one. So many do like it. I don't like cinematic books. So I say to my husband, "Should I put it on my fluff shelf?" Then I thought ..."

From what I remember, I also did not like the way the book was written, and the historical anachronisms just really got on my nerves, yuck. I know you can never completely recreate the past, but at least an author should try to be realistic, if you know what I mean.


Chrissie Gundula, go back and change your rating if you think it is incorrect. Thanks for appreciating my honesty. I do feel like I am a bit weird.


Misfit No you aren't at all Chrissie, sometimes we all will react differently to a book that everyone else seems to love.


Manybooks Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, go back and change your rating if you think it is incorrect. Thanks for appreciating my honesty. I do feel like I am a bit weird."

I already changed it to one star. At the beginning of my time at GR, there were a few books that I accidentally rated too high because I was still learning the ropes, many of them I fixed, but I forgot about Pope Joan.


message 14: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Vegan Chrissie, Everything you said was helpful, though I already trusted your opinion even before you finished the review. But especially useful was your comments about the two dimensional characters and the cinematic tone. Etc.


Chrissie Misfit, it wasn't a favorite with you either. This feels better b/c you are an expert on hf books.

Gundula, nice!

And Lisa, I am so glad my review helped. Definitely cinematica and two-dimensional characters; A movie has been made. I am not surprised.

Thanks all of you!


Manybooks Chrissie wrote: "Misfit, it wasn't a favorite with you either. This feels better b/c you are an expert on hf books.

Gundula, nice!

And Lisa, I am so glad my review helped. Definitely cinematica and two-dimensio..."


But I think even as a movie, I would not like it ...


Chrissie The movie is unnecessary given the ciematic tone of the book. You picture the damsel in the dungeon, the barbarous Vikings attacking and plundering the town and its people, the love scenes, papal splendor, floods and don't forget the tilt of the little white fox pups head...... Unfortunately I think many want this kind of movie and the director is very famous. You know the guy who did the movie of the monastery full of monks in Italy and murders. You know that famous stuck-up author that want s to make books long and compicated.


Manybooks Chrissie wrote: "The movie is unnecessary given the ciematic tone of the book. You picture the damsel in the dungeon, the barbarous Vikings attacking and plundering the town and its people, the love scenes, papal s..."

Yeah, Umberto Eco, an academic who gives academic pomposity a brand new name ...


Chrissie Gundula, of course, I was asleep when I wrote the previous comment. Same director as the movie of The Name of the Rose. Finally I have awoken!

I guess it will be a hit.


message 20: by [deleted user] (new)

Thank you for the helpful review. I've been undecided on this one.


Manybooks Christine wrote: "Thank you for the helpful review. I've been undecided on this one."

A lot of people really enjoyed this book, but Chrissie and I hated it. Well, at least Chrissie finished the book, I gave up after about forty odd pages.


Victoria_Grossack Grossack Interesting to read your point of view. I actually enjoyed the book, especially some of the details - arguing about the meaning of some of the stories in the Bible, the medicine and the herbs, etc. And I can appreciate some of the challenges the author faced in terms of trying to motivate the action. Why would someone do this? (love of learning) How could she get away with it for so long? (kill off everyone in a Viking raid) Who was her lover - as the legend has her die of a miscarriage? It had to be someone from her past - she could hardly trust her secret to someone of her present.

But I love reading your analysis, and as you know I just had a bad reaction to a book I fear is very popular...


message 23: by Chrissie (last edited Jul 12, 2011 11:56AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Chrissie Christine and Victoria, I really disliked the book. The idea behind the book is great, but I did not like how it was executed. I say this very clearly in my review. (Please see the second paragraph of my review.) For me, the cinematic tone and the two-dimensional figures, destroyed any positive elements found in the book. I cannot rate this book differently., even if the history and the retelling of bible interpretations and herbal knowledge were all there.

Those of you who appreciated my review, please remember I am in the minority. You may not agree if you read the book. But thanks for your votes of confidence.


Misfit That's the beauty of Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ, we can almost always agree to disagree and still keep it civil. Nice to see I'm not the only one in the minority on the everyone else loves books :)


Chrissie Misfit, no you are definitely not alone. I strongly agree; people shou be able to disagree amiably.


Dawn (& Ron) No derogatory remarks, no personal insults, can this really be a genuine discussion between people who like and dislike the same book?!?! This is incredibly refreshing and intelligent, so un-Amazon like.


Victoria_Grossack Grossack And pretty much everywhere else on the internet.


Misfit Dawn wrote: "No derogatory remarks, no personal insults, can this really be a genuine discussion between people who like and dislike the same book?!?! This is incredibly refreshing and intelligent, so un-Amazon..."

I know, outside of an occasional smack or too Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ is very civilized.


Chrissie I do not read Amazon reviews. I have never trusted what I find there. Why do people have to get so upset about different opinions?! Why does there have to be just one way of looking at something? Dawn, nice you joined us!


Chrissie I do not read Amazon reviews. I have never trusted what I find there. Why do people have to get so upset about different opinions?! Why does there have to be just one way of looking at something? Dawn, nice you joined us!


Misfit Chrissie wrote: "I do not read Amazon reviews. I have never trusted what I find there. Why do people have to get so upset about different opinions?! Why does there have to be just one way of looking at something? D..."

I still review on Amazon, but I do agree there's a lot of shenanigans going on there. Honeslty the reviews I've had the most trouble with have come from people who seem to have axes to grind (ties to author) or from anonymous sock puppet accounts.

Chrissie, meet Dawn. Dawn meet Chrissie :)


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

I love your reviews in general, Chrissie, and this one in particular. I am always "afraid" to voice a negative opinion about a "well-loved" book because I have been told what a "low-brow cretin" I am for having a different opinion. Well, I'm not in that group, or with those people anymore! Hurray for polite disagreement. :)


message 33: by Barb H (new)

Barb H Chrissie, as usual, you have written a very thorough review. I give you much credit for staying with a book which you seemed not to enjoy. I have begun to abandon books that don't please me. There is so much to read elsewhere!


Dawn (& Ron) Thank you for the double welcome, Chrissie, so nice you had to say it twice, ha-ha. And now that Misfit has properly and formerly introduced us, let us not be strangers anymore.

I have to say one good thing for Amazon, due to a brouhaha I found myself in the middle of there, Misfit sent me a life raft and pulled me out. When I shook myself free (although I do go back from time to time and dip a toe in - aka my two cents), I found my way to the civilized, entertaining and addictive world of book discussions here on GR.


Victoria_Grossack Grossack As an author on goodreads, I can tell you that they put limits on what I can do. For example, I can't use the recommendation key to recommend my own books to anyone. And if I try to comment on a review of my books, civility warnings appear.

But I thought Amazon had controls on who could post? With credit card confirmations and such? After a scandal in which it was discovered that many of the positive reviews were being posted by authors.

Anyway, let me mention my own caveat: for many years, Donna Woolfolk Cross and I shared the same literary agency. That literary agency unfortunately did not sell our books (well, except for a publisher in Greece) but there is a connection. Even though my co author moved on to other options, we're still on cordial terms with our former agent.


Chrissie First of all, I love just talking with all of you!!! About books, about behavior, about reviews. What is so lovely is that we all are interested in books and all know how to converse in an adult manner...... the thing is many adults have lost this ability! :0)

Jeanette, I am such a lousy lier I just have to speak the truth. Good you left that group, life is so much more fun over here.

And Dawn, now that we have been properly introduced, we must keep in touch! Like minded souls need to hang on to each other.

Barbara, I really have a hard time quitting a book, but actually I do sometimes. I promise, I do. Just out of some kind of perverse curiosity I want to know what the author will do with the entire book. Will there be anything I like. The funny thing was that in this book I loved the theme. Others do NOT believe in Pope Joan, but I am not so sure...... Maybe she did exist. It is not at all impossible. And I liked the way the author's note was written. True, I could have just skipped to the author's note, but I just didn't. The whole question of if she really existed is tantalizing.

You guys, meet Victoria. I can say that I read Iokaste: The Novel of the Mother-Wife of Oedipus and liked it very, very much! Remember what I just said to Jeanette, I cannot lie so I do not try! Not only is she a good author but also a wonderful friend. I wrote a review of that book and intend on reading more, when things calm down a bit here at home.

Oh and Misfit. I am always blabbing about the wonderful Kirkus reviews that are available at B&N free. Well, they have disappeared. Kirkus has changed owners and B&N is all revamped for the worse. No more free Kirkus reviews. I sent a question to B&N and got back the enlightening response that they didn't know a thing about what had happened to the Kirkus reviews. Well then how about finding out. I just asked if they would return! Now I never look at B&N any more. and they suggested a book, that wasn't good. Don't read The Free World. I was a total sucker listening to all the praise given that book.

Toodles. It is early...... am I awake?


message 37: by Claire (new)

Claire I think I read Pope Joan by Laurence Durrell a very long time ago.It was
very difficult and I bailed out since then I have avoided all books about Pope Joan and nothing I have read here makes me want to alter that stance.


Victoria_Grossack Grossack Dear Chrissie - thanks for the plug! But the edition you mentioned is the earlier edition. Although the books are emotionally the same, the new edition (and the one you read), Jocasta: The Mother-Wife of Oedipus contains certain improvements. A map. Better writing (after a decade of practice, Alice and I are simply much better writers). Tiny corrections to some details. And tie-ins to the other books, which don't affect the plot, but give a better overall reading experience. (If anyone is curious, please visit ).

Enough about me. We all have to remember that writing is a business. However, I admit that I can't understand why people finish books that they're not enjoying, or why they continue to buy novels from authors who obviously disappoint. It only rewards poor quality.


Chrissie Victoria, it is terribly hard to get the title/author button to work for your books...... I am glad you fixed it and gave a better link.

Yes, I agree. I wish I had not bought The Autobiography of Henry VIII: With Notes by His Fool, Will Somers...... The size is daunting and I have it in paperback. Have any of you read it? Tell me it is not bad? Or should I just dump it. What a waste, a brand new book. Or does somebody want to read it with me? I send you the paperback and when you have it you send me a Kindle book? Then we can talk about it...... that is an idea. Do tell me the truth. I is it so bad it is not worth opening? I gave Cleopatra by George (the same author) three stars, so it was good but could definitely have been better. Please, I need advice!

You know Victoria, I usually do not even read several books by the same author, unless I am thoroughly impressed. I usually want to taste new authors.


Misfit Victoria_Grossack wrote: "As an author on goodreads, I can tell you that they put limits on what I can do. For example, I can't use the recommendation key to recommend my own books to anyone. And if I try to comment on a ..."

Eh, there's still ways around it. Yes there's a purchase/credit card requirement, but all you need is a different email, buy something and you've got a new sock-puppet account and off they can go snarking and/or hitting people with negative votes. With some authors, even if the critical reviews aren't hit with snotty comments you'll find a definite pattern of voting. All critical reviews will pick up the same # of negative votes and the gushy reviews with pick up the exact # of positive votes. I'm not the only one who notices either, and after a while people tend to not want to read that author 'cause you'll know you are going to get them just for speaking your piece.

I know in the grand scheme of life those votes aren't really that important, but in the new ranking system negative votes can really impact your reviewer ranking.

There are also that review attacks that come from friends/business connections of authors. Those authors immediately go on my never ever read list not even if it's free from the library.

Chrissie, I read the H8 book a few years ago and recall liking it a lot.

Victoria, interesting about the skids GR puts on authors and I'm glad to see it. The Amazon discussions are virtual ghost towns because of the author spamming going on there.


Chrissie Misfit, that makes me feel better about having the book. Does anybody else feel like reading The Autobiography of Henry VIIII have a new unopened paperback. I could mail to to you. When you have it you could gift me the Kindle version. Anybody interested. It doesn't hurt to ask!


message 42: by Iset (new)

Iset Chrissie I have the H8 book and I read it a few years back. I mostly enjoyed it a lot, but the portrayal of Anne Boleyn in it (a genuine witch with 6 fingers and basically a cackling harpy) hacked me off rather, so for that reason it lost a couple of points with me - but I would still rate it above average, it just lost getting a perfect mark out of me. I can't do an exchange with you though cause I already own the book and don't need another copy!


Chrissie Beth, well at least I know that when I open it, it ought to be good! That is comforting. Thanks for dropping in and telling me! Right now it is hidden in a bookshelf behind other books. Thank goodness I now have a Kindle. I don't have any more space for books.


Dawn (& Ron) Chrissie wrote: "Victoria, it is terribly hard to get the title/author button to work for your books...... I am glad you fixed it and gave a better link.

Yes, I agree. I wish I had not bought [book:The Autobiogra..."


Chrissy, I read it years ago too. I remember I enjoyed it and do agree with Beth about Boleyn's portrayal. What I enjoyed was seeing him grow from a boy, to a virile young man, to an obscene bloated version of his former self, both in body and mind. George gives you insight into the decisions and choices he made and how he turned into the version of him most remembered today (well, until 'The Tudors' series anyway). I think it was a fairly even handed treatment of Henry, she didn't make try to make excuses for his actions, maybe some of the others remember this better.

I'm sorry I can't help you with the trade.

And Dawn, now that we have been properly introduced, we must keep in touch! Like minded souls need to hang on to each other.
I totally agree!


message 45: by Iset (new)

Iset I would agree with that. I really liked the portrayal of Henry and his slow change from Renaissance prince to corpulent tyrant - that was done very well and was really interesting. Only the Anne Boleyn thing blighted it for me - I'd probably give it 8 out of 10 for that reason. So still really good, it's just that I have this one big quibble with it.


Chrissie My first hurtle is overcome - I want to read the book. Now I have to find someone who wants a new paperback of Henry VIII.It is too much too read with my feeble eyes. I originally picked this book b/c it had good reviews and I thought I would get all the wives in one book.......

I trust you guys and any friend of Misfit is my friend too, but I can't just send this book to Ms X and hope they send me the Kindle in return. If you hear of someone you know who does want to read it, please tell them my idea.

I know, why don't I just go and buy the Kindle?! Cheapo me. I cannot do this with all the books I have sitting here next to me!


Misfit Chrissie, I'm a cheapo too and probably would never have got the kindle (my library does get just about everything), but I got a nice gift cert from Ammy when I participated in their ABNA contest as a reviewer and that was our reward. I'm buying very few kindle books, but I do like the books that are free in the public domain, as well as the kindle freebie specials that come along. I'm really excited that kindle books will be coming to the library soon.


Chrissie Misfit,wondefult to get one free!!! The best with Kindle is the sampling. You get a free sample that lets you read several chapters. You really can see how the writer writes. I have had really bad luck with the freebies. I am not into classics any more. Those were the days of my youth. You know, I envy you and your libraries....


Misfit Chrissie, the free samples are the best. There are kindle apps that are free, for PC/I Phone, etc. if you're able to read on those.

I am very very lucky to live in a county with a well funded library.


Chrissie Misfit, I love the Kindle, though it is good you appreciate your libraries. Having Kindle books availabe at libraries is fantastic! I do wish the books were cheaper, but Europeans pay about 2USD more per book than Americans. :0( On the other hand I will be making less mistakes due to the sampling, I hope.


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