J.G. Keely's Reviews > Elric of Melniboné
Elric of Melniboné (The Elric Saga, #1)
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I have spent a long time searching for a modern fantastical epic which is worth reading. It seems like there should be one, out there, somewhere. I have so enjoyed the battlefields of Troy, the dank cavern of Grendel's dam, Dido's lament, Ovid's hundred wild-spun tales, perfidious Odysseus, the madness of Orlando, Satan's twisted rhetoric, and Gilgamesh's sea-voyage to the forgotten lands of death. And so I seek some modern author to reinvent these tales with some sense of scholarship, poetry, character, and adventure.
There are many great modern fantasies, but the epic subgenre lacks luster. In reading the offerings--Martin, Jordan, Goodkind, Paolini, even much-lauded Wolfe--I have found them all wanting. They are all flawed in the same ways: their protagonists are dull caricatures of some universal 'badass' ideal, plot conflicts are glossed-over with magic or convenient deaths, the magic itself is not a mysterious force but a familiar tool, and women are made secondary or worse (though the authors often talk about how women are strong and independent, the women never actually act that way).
But then, they are all acolytes of Old Tolkien, who is as stodgy, unromantic, and methodical as a fantasist can be (without being C.S. Lewis). Though I respect Tolkien's work as a well-researched literary exercise, it is hard to forgive him for making it acceptable to write fantasy which is so dull, aimless, and self-absorbed. It is unfortunate that so many people think that fantasy began with Tolkien, because that is a great falsehood, and anyone who believes it does not really know fantasy at all. It nearly died with him.
Yet there are many who do think he started it. They like to comment on reviews, especially reviews of their favorite books--especially negative reviews of their favorite books--which have, lamentably, become a specialty of mine. And often, they end up asking me "Well, what fantasy do you like?" There are many I could name, numerous favorites which have shocked and overawed me, which have shaken me to my core, which have shown me worlds and magic I dared not dream. But none of them are epics.
I could mention Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, a powerfully self-possessed work and one of the only fantasies of the past twenty years that I consider worth reading--the other is China Mieville's Perdido Street Station--but these are a Victorian alternate history continuation of the British Fairy Tale tradition and a New Weird Urban Fantasy, respectively. I could mention Mervyn Peake's Titus books, which so powerfully inhabit my five-star rating that Mieville and Clarke must be relegated to four--but this is a work whose fantastical nature would probably not even be apparent to most fantasy enthusiasts.
Alas they are not good counter-examples. I can (and do) mention Robert E. Howard's Conan, and Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar series, but these are fast-paced adventure stories, and though their worlds may be vast, mysterious, and grand, the stories themselves lack the hyperopic arc at the heart of an epic work.
But there have been many suggestions, many readers who have come to my aid, and who have named authors I might look to next, in my quest: Guy Gavriel Kay, Ursula K. LeGuin, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson, Jeff VanderMeer, Michael De Larrabietti, John M. Harrison, Scott Lynch, Patricia McKillip, and John Crowley (Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss have been both suggested and sneered at). It is my hope that, somewhere amongst them, I will find the exemplary epic fantasy I am looking for--but I haven't found it in Moorcock.
Moorcock is good, he has scope, depth, complexity, and long, twisting plots, but at their core, his stories are modern, metaphysical, and subversive. They are light and lilting, ironical and wry--too quick and twisting to be 'epic'. The characters are introspective and self-aware, and it is clear that it is they, and not the world, who will be at the forefront.
It is all so thoroughly modern, so reinvented, full of sprightly ideas and metaphysical brooding. But it is decidedly not modern in the accidental, self-defeating ways of all those pretenders to the 'epic' title. The characters are not merely the male-fantasy counterpart of a bodice ripper, with modern, familiar minds dressed thinly in Medieval costume. The world is not simply our world with an overlay of castles--dragons for jet fighters, spells for guns, with modern politics and sensibilities.
No, Moorcock's world and characters are alien and fantastical, but Moorcock does not achieve this by ripping them whole-cloth from history, but by extrapolating them from modern philosophical ideas. Fantasy stories have always been full of dreamscapes, of impossible places for the reader to inhabit. These places draw us in, somehow we recognize them, like our own dreams, because of what they represent.
Anthropomorphism is the human tendency to see people where there are none: to see smiling faces in wood grain, to assign complex emotional motivations to cats, and to curse at the storm that breaks our window. The 'Other World' of British Fairy Tales is based on the latter: the assigning of our luck--good and bad--to capricious spirits. The world of fairy has rules (as do storms), but those rules are mostly a mystery to man.
But Moorcock's world personifies the ideas of Kant and Nietzsche: his 'Other Worlds' (called 'Planes') are those of the human mind: they are places of morality, like heaven and hell, except he has updated the concept to existential morality. There is Chaos, and there is Law; Chaos is the selfish urge, Law the communal urge, and he arrays his magic, spirits, and dreamscapes along this axis.
Like Milton, he has infused his epic with the latest thoughts and notions, updating it for the modern age. Also like Milton, Moorcock's influence has been felt, far and wide, despite the fact that most people do not recognize it.
The Dungeons & Dragons game prominently used his Law/Chaos dichotomy, among other concepts, and his 'Wheel of Psychic Planes' is an influence on their most audacious and unusual publication, the philosophical 'Steampunk' setting, Planescape. And many of these tropes have filtered down into the grab-bag common to the modern voice of fantasy stories.
Reading Elric, one will invariably be reminded of a dozen other books and games, as Elric drinks endless potions to maintain his strength and vitality, slaying twisted demons on a plane of fire in search of a rune-sword, dressed in ornate black armor and a dragon-helm. Indeed, the central mythology (and much of the plot) of the Elder Scrolls games--in particular Oblivion--owe a vast debt to Elric and his world, and not simply for the land of 'Elwher'.
Clearly, Moorcock's odd vision has been transcribed onto the imaginations of fantasists, but as with those who were inspired by Tolkien, most of his followers have failed to recreate the weight of the original message. Except for a few outliers, like Planescape and Perdido Street Station, most authors have copied the outward appearance of Moorcock's alien world, but were not skilled or knowledgeable enough to take the substance along with the form--the existential ideas, the vital core of his dreamscapes, are most often missing, or at best, faded.
But while the ideas and the overall vision are strong--even compared to the ubiquitous attempts to recreate them--there are a number of flaws in Moorcock's presentation. The first and most damaging is a weakness in the voice. Moorcock has a lot to say, but must sometimes resort to explaining his ideas to us. He is not always able to deliver his world and characters through interactions, hints, tone, and actions. He is hardly an inexperienced enough author to explain to us that which is already self-evident, but it is a weakness in his delivery which sometimes takes us out of the flow of the story, so that we must step back from the world and listen to Moorcock talk about it, though he does do his best to veil it with Elric's thoughts.
Secondly, it can be difficult to get a strong impression of his characters, they are often difficult to sympathize with or to predict. It isn't that they aren't vivid and active, but that their actions are often based around ideas and concepts--the things Moorcock built his world on--which can create a sense of a top-down world, where the characters are there to fulfill a purpose, to explore various notions and philosophies.
The book is certainly not an allegory--there are no easy one-to-one correlations to be made between characters and ideas, but the world does not revolve around personalities--except, perhaps, for Elric's, but his thoughts and motivations are often the most difficult to reconcile. The personalities of all the other characters are, more or less, wholly dependent on him.
To some degree, the characters seem to operate on much older fantasy rules: their capricious yet repetitive acts becoming motifs for the larger ideas in the story, not unlike Tolkien's fantasy forefather, E.R. Eddison, whose characters seem half-mad with heroism for its own sake (another candidate for my favorite epic, if I didn't think his beautiful, deliberate archaism might prove too remote for many readers).
Part of the reason for this is that Elric's personality and world were created as an exercise, and with an explicit purpose: to portray the anti-Conan. He is sickly, weak, pale, effeminate, sorcerous, erudite, cruel, reluctant, intellectual, and hardly promiscuous. Conan becomes king by his own hand, while Elric begins as emperor and we witness the hardships of his downfall.
But this contrariness, while coloring the story, is hardly its center. Moorcock uses it as a springboard--an inspiration to drive him to something greater. It is one more example of the fact that genius is at its best when it has a lofty challenge before it. Moorcock is not interested in making a parody, but in exploring a little-trodden path, operating on the notion that if you start with something familiar and begin to move away from it, you are bound to end up somewhere else.
I must also mention an unbelievable incident involving a group of blind soldiers, which put dire strain to credulity. A bit of creative myth or capricious magic could have saved it, but as it stands in the book, it makes little sense.
But despite the subtle weaknesses in voice and characterization, Moorcock's idiomatic adventure story is eminently enjoyable. There are few fantasy books I could name which suggest such a playful intellect as this, and though it is not as wildly imaginative as his Gloriana, this philosophical exploration disguised as a pulp adventure is a delightful read that never gets bogged-down in indulging its own thoughtfulness.
There are many great modern fantasies, but the epic subgenre lacks luster. In reading the offerings--Martin, Jordan, Goodkind, Paolini, even much-lauded Wolfe--I have found them all wanting. They are all flawed in the same ways: their protagonists are dull caricatures of some universal 'badass' ideal, plot conflicts are glossed-over with magic or convenient deaths, the magic itself is not a mysterious force but a familiar tool, and women are made secondary or worse (though the authors often talk about how women are strong and independent, the women never actually act that way).
But then, they are all acolytes of Old Tolkien, who is as stodgy, unromantic, and methodical as a fantasist can be (without being C.S. Lewis). Though I respect Tolkien's work as a well-researched literary exercise, it is hard to forgive him for making it acceptable to write fantasy which is so dull, aimless, and self-absorbed. It is unfortunate that so many people think that fantasy began with Tolkien, because that is a great falsehood, and anyone who believes it does not really know fantasy at all. It nearly died with him.
Yet there are many who do think he started it. They like to comment on reviews, especially reviews of their favorite books--especially negative reviews of their favorite books--which have, lamentably, become a specialty of mine. And often, they end up asking me "Well, what fantasy do you like?" There are many I could name, numerous favorites which have shocked and overawed me, which have shaken me to my core, which have shown me worlds and magic I dared not dream. But none of them are epics.
I could mention Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, a powerfully self-possessed work and one of the only fantasies of the past twenty years that I consider worth reading--the other is China Mieville's Perdido Street Station--but these are a Victorian alternate history continuation of the British Fairy Tale tradition and a New Weird Urban Fantasy, respectively. I could mention Mervyn Peake's Titus books, which so powerfully inhabit my five-star rating that Mieville and Clarke must be relegated to four--but this is a work whose fantastical nature would probably not even be apparent to most fantasy enthusiasts.
Alas they are not good counter-examples. I can (and do) mention Robert E. Howard's Conan, and Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar series, but these are fast-paced adventure stories, and though their worlds may be vast, mysterious, and grand, the stories themselves lack the hyperopic arc at the heart of an epic work.
But there have been many suggestions, many readers who have come to my aid, and who have named authors I might look to next, in my quest: Guy Gavriel Kay, Ursula K. LeGuin, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson, Jeff VanderMeer, Michael De Larrabietti, John M. Harrison, Scott Lynch, Patricia McKillip, and John Crowley (Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss have been both suggested and sneered at). It is my hope that, somewhere amongst them, I will find the exemplary epic fantasy I am looking for--but I haven't found it in Moorcock.
Moorcock is good, he has scope, depth, complexity, and long, twisting plots, but at their core, his stories are modern, metaphysical, and subversive. They are light and lilting, ironical and wry--too quick and twisting to be 'epic'. The characters are introspective and self-aware, and it is clear that it is they, and not the world, who will be at the forefront.
It is all so thoroughly modern, so reinvented, full of sprightly ideas and metaphysical brooding. But it is decidedly not modern in the accidental, self-defeating ways of all those pretenders to the 'epic' title. The characters are not merely the male-fantasy counterpart of a bodice ripper, with modern, familiar minds dressed thinly in Medieval costume. The world is not simply our world with an overlay of castles--dragons for jet fighters, spells for guns, with modern politics and sensibilities.
No, Moorcock's world and characters are alien and fantastical, but Moorcock does not achieve this by ripping them whole-cloth from history, but by extrapolating them from modern philosophical ideas. Fantasy stories have always been full of dreamscapes, of impossible places for the reader to inhabit. These places draw us in, somehow we recognize them, like our own dreams, because of what they represent.
Anthropomorphism is the human tendency to see people where there are none: to see smiling faces in wood grain, to assign complex emotional motivations to cats, and to curse at the storm that breaks our window. The 'Other World' of British Fairy Tales is based on the latter: the assigning of our luck--good and bad--to capricious spirits. The world of fairy has rules (as do storms), but those rules are mostly a mystery to man.
But Moorcock's world personifies the ideas of Kant and Nietzsche: his 'Other Worlds' (called 'Planes') are those of the human mind: they are places of morality, like heaven and hell, except he has updated the concept to existential morality. There is Chaos, and there is Law; Chaos is the selfish urge, Law the communal urge, and he arrays his magic, spirits, and dreamscapes along this axis.
Like Milton, he has infused his epic with the latest thoughts and notions, updating it for the modern age. Also like Milton, Moorcock's influence has been felt, far and wide, despite the fact that most people do not recognize it.
The Dungeons & Dragons game prominently used his Law/Chaos dichotomy, among other concepts, and his 'Wheel of Psychic Planes' is an influence on their most audacious and unusual publication, the philosophical 'Steampunk' setting, Planescape. And many of these tropes have filtered down into the grab-bag common to the modern voice of fantasy stories.
Reading Elric, one will invariably be reminded of a dozen other books and games, as Elric drinks endless potions to maintain his strength and vitality, slaying twisted demons on a plane of fire in search of a rune-sword, dressed in ornate black armor and a dragon-helm. Indeed, the central mythology (and much of the plot) of the Elder Scrolls games--in particular Oblivion--owe a vast debt to Elric and his world, and not simply for the land of 'Elwher'.
Clearly, Moorcock's odd vision has been transcribed onto the imaginations of fantasists, but as with those who were inspired by Tolkien, most of his followers have failed to recreate the weight of the original message. Except for a few outliers, like Planescape and Perdido Street Station, most authors have copied the outward appearance of Moorcock's alien world, but were not skilled or knowledgeable enough to take the substance along with the form--the existential ideas, the vital core of his dreamscapes, are most often missing, or at best, faded.
But while the ideas and the overall vision are strong--even compared to the ubiquitous attempts to recreate them--there are a number of flaws in Moorcock's presentation. The first and most damaging is a weakness in the voice. Moorcock has a lot to say, but must sometimes resort to explaining his ideas to us. He is not always able to deliver his world and characters through interactions, hints, tone, and actions. He is hardly an inexperienced enough author to explain to us that which is already self-evident, but it is a weakness in his delivery which sometimes takes us out of the flow of the story, so that we must step back from the world and listen to Moorcock talk about it, though he does do his best to veil it with Elric's thoughts.
Secondly, it can be difficult to get a strong impression of his characters, they are often difficult to sympathize with or to predict. It isn't that they aren't vivid and active, but that their actions are often based around ideas and concepts--the things Moorcock built his world on--which can create a sense of a top-down world, where the characters are there to fulfill a purpose, to explore various notions and philosophies.
The book is certainly not an allegory--there are no easy one-to-one correlations to be made between characters and ideas, but the world does not revolve around personalities--except, perhaps, for Elric's, but his thoughts and motivations are often the most difficult to reconcile. The personalities of all the other characters are, more or less, wholly dependent on him.
To some degree, the characters seem to operate on much older fantasy rules: their capricious yet repetitive acts becoming motifs for the larger ideas in the story, not unlike Tolkien's fantasy forefather, E.R. Eddison, whose characters seem half-mad with heroism for its own sake (another candidate for my favorite epic, if I didn't think his beautiful, deliberate archaism might prove too remote for many readers).
Part of the reason for this is that Elric's personality and world were created as an exercise, and with an explicit purpose: to portray the anti-Conan. He is sickly, weak, pale, effeminate, sorcerous, erudite, cruel, reluctant, intellectual, and hardly promiscuous. Conan becomes king by his own hand, while Elric begins as emperor and we witness the hardships of his downfall.
But this contrariness, while coloring the story, is hardly its center. Moorcock uses it as a springboard--an inspiration to drive him to something greater. It is one more example of the fact that genius is at its best when it has a lofty challenge before it. Moorcock is not interested in making a parody, but in exploring a little-trodden path, operating on the notion that if you start with something familiar and begin to move away from it, you are bound to end up somewhere else.
I must also mention an unbelievable incident involving a group of blind soldiers, which put dire strain to credulity. A bit of creative myth or capricious magic could have saved it, but as it stands in the book, it makes little sense.
But despite the subtle weaknesses in voice and characterization, Moorcock's idiomatic adventure story is eminently enjoyable. There are few fantasy books I could name which suggest such a playful intellect as this, and though it is not as wildly imaginative as his Gloriana, this philosophical exploration disguised as a pulp adventure is a delightful read that never gets bogged-down in indulging its own thoughtfulness.
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Reading Progress
December 10, 2011
–
Started Reading
December 10, 2011
– Shelved
December 10, 2011
– Shelved as:
uk-and-ireland
December 10, 2011
– Shelved as:
fantasy
December 13, 2011
–
Finished Reading
December 19, 2011
– Shelved as:
reviewed
January 22, 2012
– Shelved as:
sword-and-sorcery
Comments Showing 1-50 of 103 (103 new)

I'm wondering if I should switch to the version of the series that you're reading. The one I'm reading has a lot of stories that don't even seem to have anything to do with Elric at all. Maybe I'm just missing something in the whole "Multiverse" thing.
Also, I have decided to go ahead and recommend a series by Andrzej Sapkowski to you. You may already be aware of it as the series of fantasy novels that inspired the "Witcher" series of computer games. As of now there are only two books in English, a collection of stories called "The Last Wish" and the first novel in the actual "series" called "Blood of the Elves". The problem is...I am capable of reading novels in Spanish. I have read them all in Spanish and I think they would interest you given what you have to say about fantasy so far, but I'm not sure the English translations are very strong or do it justice. There's also an entire second collection of stories that are apparently never going to be translated. I dunno how you feel about reading translated novels (a lot of subtlety can be lost) but as a work of fantasy I believe these books are superb.

You know, I have heard of the Witcher novels, but I've never added them to my list. I shall have to rectify that. Thanks for the suggestion.
Rob wrote: "his most notable weakness is that his series feel rushed towards the end."
That's unfortunate, hopefully I will find something redeeming in them, but I know that's how some of my favorite series have dwindled off at the end, like the Lankhmar books.
I'll keep the Corum stories in mind, too.




i don't think you'll find much in the way of 'epic fantasy' in John Crowley. although i do think he is excellent, and his The Deep does explore various epic fantasy themes & tropes.
good luck on Guy Gavriel Kay. i'm very interested in reading what you have to say about his Tigana, if you ever get around to reading it. although i fear you won't particularly enjoy it. same with Fionavar Tapestry, which i adore - but i can't really see you feeling the same way.

In any particular way? Was it that I didn't fully appreciate the gayness of Tolkienian romance? Did you read Moorcock's which I linked to in my review? In some ways, I think of my review as a continuation of those ideas. You could also look at this piece from Mieville, which is rather brief and caustic, but references some of the same problems that concerned me.
I'm glad you liked my analysis of Moorcock, though. Thanks. Thank you also for the observations on the different suggestions I've gotten for fantasy reading. Mostly, the factor that determines what book I read next is what I can find used locally--Elric seems pretty omnipresent, in that regard--of course, it helps if you know what you're looking for, so it's good to get titles.

Yeah, that is one of the certain benefits to reading a work that is flawed or falls short in very specific ways: it suddenly seems so easy to write something that would improve upon it. It seems like there are two types of influential works: the ones that are so cool that everyone tries to live up to them but fails, and the kind that are kind of interesting, but so flawed that they make every author feel like they could do better.

ha! that is funny. and so true... well, at least with the swooningly romantic gay melodrama of the film versions.
but no, the stuff i found to be odd & nonsensical were the "unromantic, dull, aimless, self-absorbed" comments.
your Moorcock link was quite interesting. there is a lot to consider there. but i also think a lot of it is off-base and nonsensical. particularly his commentary around Saurun being Tolkein's version of "The Mob". i also think he over-reaches a bit in his insistence that the Shire & hobbits are an example of Tolkein's tasteful bourgeois paradise. i see the kernel of truth in there of course, but Moorcock piles a lot on that feels like he is really reaching, and rather desperately. The Shire is tasteful? uh, what? if anything, Tolkein balances his 'perfect little world' view of hobbit life with an acerbic perspective that mocks and critiques that kind of English village life. sure, in the end, he obviously adores it overall. but he does not provide an unexamined view on the middle class. many of the critiques that Moorcock tosses Hobbit Life's way are actually already present in LOTR.
as far as the Mieville critique, well i actually found that to be pretty odd & nonsensical. and downright silly at times in its personal bias. reminded me of an undergrad student railing against Shakespeare and other supposedly Stodgy Classics - simply because that type of literature is not to his taste. he stacks the deck of his own argument. the basis of Mieville's entire argument appears to be that LOTR is not radical or challenging enough for him. i think it should go without saying that a work need not be radical to be of value... and Fantasy is certainly large enough to include both the radical and the conservative, the traditional and the variously challenging new schools - with both sorts of perspectives being potentially of interest or of value.
Howard Hawks & John Ford made some wonderful films, ones that often celebrate and reify 'traditional values'. John Huston & Anthony Mann also made many wonderful films within the same genres - films that often critiqued & deconstructed the traditions of those genres. i think both sets of filmmakers are obviously of interest and value. i just don't get the either/or mentality. seems so narrowly binary!

Ah, I was referring to your top-voted Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ review--which I had sought out in hopes of better understanding your position on the issue. I didn't realize it was a movie review, though if you're thinking mainly of Tolkien's story in terms of the movies, that explains why Moorcock and Mieville's critiques don't make sense to you.
"the stuff i found to be odd & nonsensical were the "unromantic, dull, aimless, self-absorbed" comments."
I suppose, for me, the most symptomatic elements would be the endless, repetitive songs, long lists of troop movements, the novella-length digression that is Tom Bombadil, and the numerous references to an obscure history the original reader couldn't possibly understand. All of the books are full of things which do not contribute to the story or the characters, and which are only included because of a dry, studious whim of Tolkien's.
As for being unromantic, it's been said before, but how romantic can a story really be when it chiefly concerns a boys-day-out adventure and the principle love interests spend 95% of the book hundreds of miles apart?
". . . he obviously adores [The Shire] overall. but he does not provide an unexamined view on the middle class."
I have to wonder again if you aren't thinking more of the film portrayals, which I found more subtle and layered than Tolkien's originals. Certainly, he does give us some less scrupulous characters who inhabit The Shire, but this doesn't really provide an examination of The Shire, itself. His tone is, as Moorcock points out, not merely fond of The Shire, but sentimentally prepossessed with it.
His little obdurate comic figures don't actually comment on the drawbacks of the false dream of 'Merrie England', indeed, since they are presented as its worst parts, they end up supporting sentimentality, because they are such weak, foolish foils. Tolkien does not actually examine the origins or flaws of his British automyth, since he seems to implicitly support the social order of the proper lords and their happy yeomen, as represented Aragorn's noble ascension.
"Mieville's entire argument appears to be that LOTR is not radical or challenging enough . . ."
No, he's arguing that Tolkien's tone, his entire purpose is wrapped up in being consoling, in condescending to the reader, typified in characters who are not simplistic merely in a mythic, archetypal way--like Beowulf--but are simplistic morally. I think this is one of the main reasons that readers tend to want to read Tolkien allegorically, even though he rejects that interpretation: because his worldview is so sentimental and staid that it is easy to make it fit ideals.
To some degree, the critique is that to write a story which is centrally conservative, sentimental, and short-sighted is inimical to the fantastical, that this kind of small, compact thinking is the very opposite of magical, because it is so predictable and easily contained. Certainly, an author can work within tradition and do remarkable things, but Tolkien is not even presenting us with a whole tradition, but with the small piece that sheared off when he tried to force two traditions together.
His transplanted Christian morality is already much more simplistic than the great English example Milton set, because Tolkien's evil is not comprehensible or psychologically motivated, like Milton's is--it is merely convenient. Likewise, though he keeps the trappings of the dark self-will of the Norse epics, he naturally recoils from any character, which becomes problematic as he tries to find another way to justify a violent warrior-king hero, producing the same central conflict of crusade apologists: how can Adam remain pious when he must fight like Satan?
It's not merely that he presents a conservative voice but that, in the end, his conservative ideal is not entirely justified, and it is undermined in a way which weakens the very fabric of his narrative, and of his world.
Hopefully some of that explanation will prove less inexplicable to you, but I admit that, having tried to clarify with two other views that you found it equally difficult to elaborate upon, perhaps there is some other, more fundamental barrier to mutual comprehension here.

i thought your comment had a familiar ring to it! but obviously that review was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. as far as serious LOTR reviews go, i choose to opt out, if only to avoid being repetitious. there is a surplus of excellent positive reviews out there and i doubt i can bring anything new to the table in that regard. except maybe some cheap humor. such as my Return of the King review.
I have to wonder again if you aren't thinking more of the film portrayals, which I found more subtle and layered than Tolkien's originals. Certainly, he does give us some less scrupulous characters who inhabit The Shire, but this doesn't really provide an examination of The Shire, itself. His tone is, as Moorcock points out, not merely fond of The Shire, but sentimentally prepossessed with it.
oh no, definitely disagree there. although i would be foolish to say that you should read it again - if you did, you would find much parody on english village life, from grasping relatives to ostentatiously rules-obsessed nonsense to small-minded ignorance to straightforward xenophobia. it is all there, right alongside the sentiment and affection. in the end, The Shire is no doubt Tolkein's vision of A Place That Should Be Protected, but he does not provide a ridiculously perfect portrait of that world.
how romantic can a story really be when it chiefly concerns a boys-day-out adventure and the principle love interests spend 95% of the book hundreds of miles apart?
ah, i think we are thinking of different versions of romantic. i wasn't particularly thinking of "romantic" as Romantic Love. but rather the romantic elements around celebrating & mourning a bygone & dying age, a quest, battles between good & evil, the various odes to loss, etc.
most symptomatic elements would be the endless, repetitive songs, long lists of troop movements, the novella-length digression that is Tom Bombadil, and the numerous references to an obscure history the original reader couldn't possibly understand.
i suppose that is all about what a person appreciates in a novel. personally, i don't mind the songs - i find them to be quite beautiful times. i respond positively to detailed description of war (including movement of troops) the same way i can positively respond to those elements in a straightforward military fantasy/scifi adventure. i don't mind digressions (and often those digressions will be what makes the book particularly enjoyable to me) and i certainly don't mind references to an obscure mythic history. the latter is another thing that i often find pleasing in epic fantasy.
and as far as the latter is concerned, wouldn't you say that is overwhelmingly present in Jonathan Strange?
No, he's arguing that...
well you make many interesting points about the Mieville article for me to consider. particularly around what Mieville considers to be the "opposite of magical". overall though, i do still think that Mieville is engaging in the same odd reductivism - that he accuses Tolkein of in the LOTR - when describing what he thinks constitutes quality fantasy. they come from two different schools of thought and personally i think both schools have much merit.
and is it really problematic that Tolkein recoils from the Dionysian and that he paints a black-and-white world of absolute good and absolute evil? all of his heroes are Apollonian constructs! when looking at LOTR from that perspective, how is his conservative ideal undermined? he is not aiming to challenge paradigms; if anything LOTR revivifies them. why should he be critiqued for not accomplishing something that he never set out to do in the first place?
if you're thinking mainly of Tolkien's story in terms of the movies, that explains why Moorcock and Mieville's critiques don't make sense to you.
...
two other views that you found it equally difficult to elaborate upon
ouch! well i suppose if i was nervy enough to dismiss some of your comments as 'rather nonsensical', i can take a few of your own barbs with good humor.

As for the second remark, I was very disappointed that you seemed to gloss over Moorcock and Mieville's actual arguments, especially since I felt that you were calling on me to defend my position when you hadn't presented any solid counter-point. If you find something nonsensical, perhaps there is some specific clarification you could request?
"all of his heroes are Apollonian constructs! when looking at LOTR from that perspective, how is his conservative ideal undermined?"
And his villains are even more Apollonian, since they are all very structured, based around loyalty and hierarchy. We do have Saruman as a rebellious Satan figure, but after his rebellion, he just creates another very structured, ordered force, so it's obvious that he doesn't have a philosophical Dionysian streak.
I would argue that Tolkien's heroes are not that Apollonian, or at least his attempt to make them so is undermined by the fact that many of their actions are governed by the violent, selfish heroism of the Eddas. They primarily seem to be fighting for their own survival, not for some higher purpose. One might try to bring in the Maiar, but I don't think Tolkien ever bothers to explain how they fit in, at least, not in the confines of LOTR itself.
I think Tolkien wanted his heroes to come off as Apollonian, but for that, they would have to display a piety to some greater philosophy of structure, not merely self-preservation. As far as I could tell, his portrayal of 'good' and 'evil' rarely rose beyond an excuse for open conflict--that is to say, the psychology, purpose, and philosophy of good or evil were not vital to the story. It is difficult for characters to be Apollonian without a tradition they can attach themselves to.
The sense of 'tradition' Tolkien presents is such a loose thing that it is more of a sentimentality. Again, I agree that some of the figures in The Shire are meant to be comical and unpleasant, but in a funny, harmless way. He's not looking at the power structures of the peasant life, or at the real conflicts this structure would bring about.
I reiterate that the 'problem figures' he presents are so petty and silly that they do not constitute a deconstruction of the . By focusing entirely on such minor, inconsequential problems, he is implying that these are the only problems that would exist under his sentimental system.
". . . the romantic elements around celebrating & mourning a bygone & dying age, a quest, battles between good & evil, the various odes to loss, etc."
Ah, certainly, the other 'Romance'. I would have to say that Tolkien is romantic in that sense, but he romantic only about ideals, about ill-defined things which never actually existed, and to be romantic about an undefined ideal is to be merely sentimental. There can be no Great Romance without Great Ideas.
". . . i don't mind the songs . . . i respond positively to detailed description of war . . . i don't mind digressions . . . "
Well, you really are a Tolkien apologist. Old boy can do no wrong, eh? I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong about songs, troop movement, or digression if they are done well, but I don't think I have ever seen someone argue that these are strengths of Tolkien's. Certainly, he did have a purpose in including them, but that purpose was an affectation: he included them to make his book more like the Eddas. They rarely had a purpose for the characters or the story, and hence, these very long, very self-involved parts of the book were not digressions which, as in Jonathan Strange, revealed some curious detail or side story, but interrupted the tone and pacing of Tolkien's story without adding to the narrative.
You asked how anyone could find Tolkien dull, aimless, and self-absorbed, and I would say any author who fills their books with digressions that sideline the story for an extra-textual purpose are all three.
"he is not aiming to challenge paradigms; if anything LOTR revivifies them."
How does he do that? How does his epic in any way build upon the English Apollonianism defined by Milton? Certainly, he is not challenging paradigms--even when the wildness of the Eddas incidentally leaks into his work--but neither does he uphold the great tradition, because sentimental idealism is not a large enough vessel to bear any great tradition.

at this point, there is really no need. you have explained yourself exceedingly well! i would certainly be hard-pressed to dismiss your initial anti-Tolkein comments as "nonsense" now that i more thoroughly understand your perspective.
you really are a Tolkien apologist. Old boy can do no wrong, eh?
well... yes, actually! i suppose i am an apologist for all of my favorite authors.
The sense of 'tradition' Tolkien presents is such a loose thing that it is more of a sentimentality... to be romantic about an undefined ideal is to be merely sentimental. There can be no Great Romance without Great Ideas... How does his epic in any way build upon the English Apollonianism defined by Milton... sentimental idealism is not a large enough vessel
well that is certainly food for thought. and would require a bit more study from me on English Apollonianism defined by Milton before i feel comfortable replying. but a truly interesting point.
_______
as far as digressions go, i'm still quite curious to read your thoughts on the digressions within Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell (which is also a book that i greatly admired, digressions & all)
and just a general comment here... thank you for your lengthy response. many points to consider, particularly around your idea that Tolkein's heroes are faux-Apollonian.
i truly do appreciate the time & effort you put into your responses (here and elsewhere) - even if i don't end up answering them point by point. they are a pleasure to read and i'm not sure there is another GR reviewer who has given me so much food for thought from reviews, even though i often heartily disagree with your various stances. you are one of a kind Keely, never change!

Oh, good, I was worried I was just confusing you even more with my long-winded attempts to explain myself.
"i suppose i am an apologist for all of my favorite authors. "
I suppose we all are, I was just surprised that your defense extended so far--I know a lot of fans who adore Tolkien but who still found his songs, troop movements, and vague references dull and self-absorbed. There are certainly authors I am fond of, and find myself defending, but each still has their flaws and caveats.
". . . and would require a bit more study from me on English Apollonianism defined by Milton before i feel comfortable replying."
Yeah, I know what you mean--I often feel that, to really perform due diligence when talking about books would require vastly more time than I have, returning to books and critics and trying to put together something worth writing instead of these half-formed snippets I usually produce.
"i'm still quite curious to read your thoughts on the digressions within Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell"
I think I briefly suggested before that I found her digressions did not break from the general tone or pacing of her book--they were not long-winded explanations, but amusing asides. In addition, even if they were sometimes extraneous to the plot, they tended to be humorous, providing tongue-in-cheek commentary on the world, characters, and narrator.
Contrast, for example, Tolkien's troop movements. I don't mind troop movements in general, I found them very exciting and interesting in Caesar's Conquest of Gaul and Eddison's Worm Ouroboros (which was one of Tolkien's inspirations). The problem, as I recall, with Tolkien's was that they broke in suddenly upon the narrative, went on for a while in a dry, encyclopedic fashion, and then went back to the main plot. As I recall, it didn't add to the general thrust of the conflict, because it did not end up being vital to the resolution, which focused instead on the characters.
I don't mean to harp on Tolkien, I just wanted to try to demonstrate some of the differences between how I think his digressions work compared to JS&MN.
I'm glad you enjoy trading comments, and I certainly don't blame you if you don't always do a point-by-point, I certainly don't expect that.
"you are one of a kind Keely, never change!"
You say that like I have a choice in the matter!

I want to start "Perdido Street Station" soon.
Would there be any sense in reading "Elric" beforehand?
Is there a cross-author continuum that might benefit my reading of Mieville?
I've read some of Moorcock's non-fantasy work, but no fantasy yet.
In fact, I'm pretty unskilled in the fantasy genre.

"Is there a cross-author continuum that might benefit my reading of Mieville?"


I'd say there's no "need" to read any Moorcock first. A lot of authors have stood on the shoulders of Moorcock to varying degrees. I don't think it'll be necessary for your enjoyment of Perdido Street Station. Just understand it is in an alternate world with no real relation to ours and that Mieville will do a good job making sure you stay with him through the more unusual elements of that world.

Mieville, himself suggests Moorcock's 'Hawkmoon' as an influential book in , so that might serve you better.
I'm peeving sorry, but on the seventh paragraph, I think you meant Brandon Sanderson?





"They are all flawed in the same ways: their protagonists are dull caricatures of some universal 'badass' ideal, plot conflicts are glossed-over with magic or convenient deaths, the magic itself is not a mysterious force but a familiar tool, and women are made secondary or worse (though the authors often talk about how women are strong and independent, the women never actually act that way)."
You have a really great style of writing, but when you "gloss over" negative commentary without giving real examples of what you felt they have done and how you think it should be you lose credibility imo. Sure it is a lot to add to a review of a book, but based on the length of the review an extra paragraph or two could go a long ways.


Awesome, it was late and i was tired. I basically liked your review and was hoping for someone with some obvious knowledge on the inner workings of critique (yourself) to provide good examples. I'm going to check out those reviews. Thanks for the response.
I'm not sure which one to buy. I got this editon for free. But there are others with the stories in different orders.
Does it really matter?
Does it really matter?
So far, it's pretty damn good.
I think Elric is a spendid character. I'm glad to have met him. I do hope to get to know him more as I read more of this series. I get why he's been described as "radical".
The stories are pretty fun, but I think I understand why Moorcock says he's a bad writer. And agree with you on this point:
"He is not always able to deliver his world and characters through interactions, hints, tone, and actions..."
I like how honest Moorcock is about his bad writing. It's not that bad, though. I suppose after reading Foundation, this ended up being a breath of fresh air. That was like reading a textbook!
Did he ever improve when he wrote Gloriana? I wish to read more fantasy thanks to Mr Moorcock.
I think Elric is a spendid character. I'm glad to have met him. I do hope to get to know him more as I read more of this series. I get why he's been described as "radical".
The stories are pretty fun, but I think I understand why Moorcock says he's a bad writer. And agree with you on this point:
"He is not always able to deliver his world and characters through interactions, hints, tone, and actions..."
I like how honest Moorcock is about his bad writing. It's not that bad, though. I suppose after reading Foundation, this ended up being a breath of fresh air. That was like reading a textbook!
Did he ever improve when he wrote Gloriana? I wish to read more fantasy thanks to Mr Moorcock.

Yeah, he becomes a much more subtle and powerful writer later in his career, and Gloriana is a good example of what he's capable of when he can maintain pace and tone throughout a book.

/book/show/6...
I would like to know what you think about his thought.


When reading the Eric cycle, would you advise I start with the first book; or are the books written in so episodic a fashion that I could pick up any of them and still get a firm grasp on the lore and circumstances? For my local library is not so generous as to stock the entire series.


Regarding Elder Scrolls: I don't think the epicness/vastness is what the series is truly aiming for. Playing Skyrim, I felt that the creators paid the most attention to the NPC's lives. They tried to show you how Ordinary People live in a genre that's often about heroes, villains and other big characters. Every NPC has its unique dialogue and traits of its own. I think they did it better in Fallout 3, but it's something special in the genre. It's as if their inspiration is more Raymond Carver's intimate fiction than Moorcock.
If you find that I comment too much then forgive me. You just say interesting stuff.

Hmm, that was not the impression I got from that game--indeed, I often felt that the NPCs, numerous as they might be, were disappointingly flat, and that the player had very little ability to interact with them meaningfully.
For example, you'd get your house with your housecarl companion, but there really weren't any dialogue options or stories for them--they didn't have inner lives, wants or desires. You could also marry a lot of characters, but again, there was no real dialogue, no unique interactions or relationships--you just did the quest and bam, you were married.
Even for the more interesting characters, like Kodlak of the Companions, I remember feeling disappointed that his internal thoughts and motivations only become clear after he's gone and you're reading his journal--that the writers were clearly trying to set him up as this wise father figure for the Dragonborn, and yet instead of actually developing that relationship in real time, through dialogue options, you end up getting it all after the fact in some book.
I felt like this happened a lot--that anything in the game that was actually interesting, whether it was some aspect of the world or character personality, tended to be delivered via a journal you randomly find, instead of being an integral part of the story.
Compared to NPC dialogue in games like Baldur's Gate II, Torment, Knights of the Old Republic, or even newer games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, it just made Skyrim and FO3 feel really shallow to me--sure, you have all these NPCs, but you can't really interact with them very meaningfully, you can't explore relationships, and they don't change over time as characters.

Then I'd say the problem is that so much of the landscape ends up being the same--'Oh, another bandit dungeon'--though Skyrim is markedly better with this than Oblivion. Beyond that, if the landscape is supposed to be the focus, then why spend so much time poking at the inner lives of flat NPCs?
Certainly, there are games built around the poetry of physical exploration, take Journey as an extreme example, or even Zelda games like Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. In those games, the NPCs are often deliberately flat or silly--the old cliche of the JRPG where a townsperson just says the same thing over and over--because that isn't the focus of the game.
I feel Skyrim muddies the water more, because you're clearly supposed to care about many of these NPCs, to interact with them and think of them as less symbolic and more realistic, and yet I don't think that the game gives them enough depth to really merit the time you end up spending on them. I have no problem with a game that is about physical exploration, but don't then pad that game out with all sorts of other interactions that don't contribute to that.
"I can picture JRRT playing Skyrim and loving it."
Actually, I think a lot of it would upset him--particularly the parts where you're working with demon lords and as an assassin, with no moral comeuppance for your crimes. All the grey morality would not sit well with a man who spent so much time carefully molding Catholic theology and symbolism into his fantastical works--the dark, conflict-based play of Skyrim feels more to me like E.R. Eddison than Tolkien--more like the original Eddas rather than later Christian rewrites.
Take for example the great war in Skyrim versus that in Tolkien. In Skyrim, both factions are equally corrupt, and equally right in their own way--orderly colonials versus self-government racists. In Tolkien, it's a case of obvious good versus evil, righteousness versus viciousness--a choice very easy for any Good Christian to make. As such, I don't think the setup or its implications would be satisfying to Tolkien.

No, I'm not arguing that the landscape should resemble those games geographically--or even that it should have more variety in terrain. I was using those as examples of games that put more focus on exploration as an experience--which I think could also be done in a northern, mountainous climate. Indeed, I think Skyrim sometimes succeeds at providing this, but that overall, the repetition and lack of precision in design detracts from it, along with the focus on other aspects, like NPCs.
It reminds me of folks trying to defend movies like Avatar, saying that it's not supposed to be about the stories or characters, really--it's supposed to be about the spectacle. But then, if that's the case, why does Cameron spend so much time concentrating on the plot and character conflicts? The structure seems to be at odds with the purpose.
Contrast this with something like Fury Road, a film that truly did downplay plot and character in order to focus more purely on spectacle--which I feel is similar to how a game like Journey operates.
"we're probably talking around the real problem that Bethesda ran into, and that's disk space"
Eh, I'm not convinced that they would have done better with more disk space, because so much of their world, and their NPCs were already rather repetitive. I simply don't trust their crew to write the sort of complex characters and plots that we see from some other companies.
Beyond that, if they simply 'ran out of room', then the real problem was their planning in the first place. It's not as if they're new to games--they should have a good idea by now what will fit and what won't--which is why I think a lot of smaller games outperform Bethesda, because they are planned out better, with greater focus on areas of import.
However, I do think part of the problem a lot of modern RPGs are running into is voice-acting. If you're going to write a complete character, an interesting NPC, a town with its own feel and internal politics, then all of that needs to be voiced. This places a huge burden on the writing team, and doesn't allow them to rewrite or alter things that aren't working--on top of the rush and deadlines games already have, it isn't surprising that this is a huge struggle.
It also surprises me that more games haven't taken a cue from KOTOR, which used a splendid trick of having some aliens speak in their own tongues with subtitles, allowing the writers to add on and tweak innumerable minor character throughout the development process without having to worry about rerecording anything.
"It's all well and good for us to sit here criticizing a game that doesn't have BOTH ... when 1) they weren't really going for either"
Well, if that wasn't the core of the game, then I find it puzzling that they would spend so much time on both NPCs and exploration--indeed, that's the majority of what you're doing in Skyrim. If that wasn't meant to be the focus, then what was?
"It would do you well to read The Children of Húrin then"
Yeah, I've heard some interesting things about it.
"I don't think he set out to make a Catholic allegory, and he himself says this on numerous occasions."
Well, the problem I have with that is that Tolkien was a believer, and as such, when he looked at the world, he saw an obvious 'right answer' there, and to him, the world was full of signs and symbols which would naturally lead any right-thinking person to that answer--which is to say, to Tolkien the real world was an allegory. There is a proper interpretation, and all the people and events you run into in your life are supposed to point you toward that interpretation--and indeed, that the only way to avoid that belief is through willful (sinful) neglect.
As such, it would be natural for Tolkien to say that his work is not n allegory to him, that it is realistic, because it does correspond with his view of the real world. Certainly, it is not along the simplistic lines of Plowman or Lewis, but it's still delivering specific messages based on a set of symbols--messages about race, class, sex, faith, and morality that are fairly clear and direct.
Instead of using the text to force the reader to question things for themselves, to come face to face with latent prejudices and confront them, and ultimately come away with a more thoughtful understanding, Tolkien is instead trying to instruct us, to give us the 'one true way' of things. I always prefer authors who force us to ask questions rather than ones who try to force their own answers onto us, and I think the latter sort is always writing an allegory of some kind.
Of course, there are pieces that stick out in Tolkien, that don't quite fit--Bombadil is the most obvious example--and these elements are quite interesting, but I tend to see them as leftover artifacts of Tolkien's Pagan influences, rather than deliberate symbolic inclusions meant to indicate a conflict with his central theme.
"It's a matter of authorial voice, not content."
I think it's very much a question of content. In Eddison's world, conflict is the natural state--even the desired state for his heroes. They relish having a great nemesis to struggle against, and deliberately seek it out. I think it is this Nietzschean will toward struggle and conflict that Tolkien opposes, and which he thinks of as 'arrogant and cruel'.
To him, and within his world, struggle is something that the sinful and evil force upon the good--and while it is certainly noble for them to take up arms and fight against evil, it is not their desired state. At the end of his book, his characters leave the world for a place of eternal peace, which Eddison's earthy heroes would find boring and pointless.

@Keely:
Hmm, that was not the impression I got from that game--indeed, I often felt that the NPCs, numerous as they might be, were disappointingly flat, and that the player had very little ability to interact with them meaningfully
I agree with you the game lacked meaningful interactions, but I don't think that's what they aimed for. Most of the NPC's are everymen, each having his worries or his job and commenting on it. The purpose is not to create vivid, larger-than-life characters but simple people. It tries to get the same intimacy of Raymond Carver's dirty realism.
I agree with you that many of the quests were disappointing in Skyrim. They didn't even have the weird details of Morrowind, which felt like it was limited because of the technical stuff.
I haven't played those other RPG's except for Planescape. This one I also didn't finish, but it's worth worshipping. Maybe my opinion will change when I'll play them.
I disagree with you regarding FO3 though. Its quests were few but long and tended to split to different directions. The Superhero Gambit, Blood Ties, Oasis, the Republic of Dave. FO3 also has its share of mad characters. I found the superhero guys to make sense in that context. They felt like people who went crazy because of the wasteland and adopted that persona to cope with survival.
The DLC's felt undeveloped. Point Lookout had a weird story going on but suddenly you're in the climatic battle and not understanding anything.
Another special thing about FO3 is that it makes racism look sensible. Henry Eden wants to cause a genocide, but there are many moments where it looks like this genocide is necessary. Maybe a world without irradiated people would be better? FO1 does something similar. I need to write a blogpost about that connection.
You know, I think of writing my own Epic someday. I don't know what the events will be but I do know what it's about. I want my epic to explore sexuality, gender and all that fun stuff. Isn't the problem with these bad epics is that they lack a central theme to drive them?

Loved this review....I've been looking for something, anything, to match GRR Martin. He introduced me to the POV which drove me stark
( oops...sorry for the pun) raving mad for the first third of the first book. But I got over it, and forged on, loved it. Yes his books take getting used to. They do drag on, and on, but are eventually worth it.
So I will try this and see where it leads me.
Thanks, I've tried 5 other authors and been VERY disappointed, what's one more?

While it is true that Moorcock has influenced RPGs in all formats since publishing his Eternal Champion stories and yes many video games have included elements from those stories into their own storylines. As Keely puts it, Planescape seems to have the most of those ifluences and it's a shame that it came about the same time that BG2 (another excellent RPG in my opinion) came out, so Planescape went out unnoticed.
Elder Scrolls has lesser influences than Planescape, with some of it's titles claiming more (Oblivion comes to mind), but all in all it's a series of dark fantasy video games.
As far as story and player/NPC interactions goes I think the best RPGs are Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape, with more recent games being DA Origins, Vampire the Masquerade, while I still haven't played enough ME and Skyrim to fully judge them yet.

It's true that it didn't sell a lot of copies when it first came out, but since then, it's certainly garnered notice--it often appears at the top of 'best game' lists on gaming websites, and has a devoted cult following.
It should also be noted that videogames like Baldur's Gate and Torment were based on tabletop games, which is where they draw their stories and setting from--so it's not as much Moorcock directly influencing these videogames as much as he influenced the tabletop games they were based on.
"As far as story and player/NPC interactions goes I think the best RPGs are Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape, with more recent games being DA Origins, Vampire the Masquerade, while I still haven't played enough ME and Skyrim to fully judge them yet."
I think FO1 is better than 2, but agreed about BG2 and Planescape Torment. I actually think DA 2 is better than the first game, but I know I'm in the minority. VtM is also quite interesting.
And for my money, the Corum books are better than Elric. The inspiration of Welsh myths gives them a more cohesive feel. And Corum isn't quite as brooding and self-pitying as Elric.